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Look, I'm studying undergraduate philosophy with no intention other than why not. Would I say I could learn the material on my own w/o college? Absolutely but I

by 50 7y ago

Look, I'm studying undergraduate philosophy with no intention other than why not. Would I say I could learn the material on my own w/o college? Absolutely but I like the organized structure of college w/ professors, peers, etc. Am I getting into debt? A fair bit. Is it worth the trade off? I certainly think so. Will I say that five years from now? Most likely. Because here's the thing: education as a means to an end is not what it's all about, and so many of us subscribe to this fiction―to this warm stupor of society's fictions―that we forget what it is truly about. College will always be worth it such that you have an endless curiosity or enjoy erring in the direction of learning which is deeply rooted into failing, or rather, not understanding, over and over again.

monoideism 7y ago
> Look, I'm studying undergrad philosophy...Am I getting into debt? A fair bit.. Is it worth the trade off? I certainly think so. Will I say that five years after I graduate? Not sure but most likely. Spoiler. Been there, done that. Unless you're at an Ivy, if you're majoring in philosophy, you'll not think it was worth it in five years. My sin was Classics, but similar outcome. Assuming you're on HN because you're teaching yourself programming, the sting will be somewhat lessened (that's the route I took), since you'll at least be able to get a job. But it'll still sting to make those massive loan payments knowing that nothing you learned is helping you with your professional life, and that things like philosophy, mathematics, and languages (and computer science!) can be learned just as easily with discipline, YouTube, and a few good textbooks. It's very easy to delay the pain of loan payments when you're in school, but they'll be there waiting for you, inevitably, through sickness and health, marriage and divorce. If you have endless curiosity, college is even less worth it. Instead, being loan-free gives you the freedom to work in areas that truly intrigue you, and to work in very low-paying internships while you're learning. But I know I won't convince you. Likely no one could have convinced me at the time (although only one person tried, once). Edit: if this were the 1970s or earlier, when you could pay for college classes from waiting tables or a $10,000 loan (inflation adjusted!), I'd absolutely say go for it. But taking out even $50,000 in debt at age 18 for anything less than a guaranteed job with a good income (physician assistant, nursing, accounting) is mortgaging your future. Taking out $200,000, which is the going rate for most [edit: should read "many, private", and is probably closer to $100,000] liberal arts 4-year-degrees, is insanity, but between culture BS about degrees and "academic counselors", I know it may not seem that way to you right now.
- 50 7y ago
  Thank you for the input. It's interesting, and hey, it might be the case down the road. But my main philosophy behind my seemingly naive post is this: I don't mind what happens. I'm of the opinion that it doesn't matter what is but how you think about what is that matters. Edit: I saw your edit, and again, thank you for your input. I would just like to note that I'll be graduating with ~12k in debt - I went to a community college first while living with my parents and transferred to a UC, and California's higher education system supports low-income, first generation households fairly well - to which I owe great gratitude to.
  - Cougher 7y ago
    "I'm of the opinion that it doesn't matter what is but how you think about what is that matters." That's a false dichotomy that will be difficult to fully adhere to when you spend your next decades as an adult. Yes, perspective matters; a LOT. But "what is" and "what was" can matter a lot too. Imagining that you can just think your way out of hard spots can lead to complacency about the choices that you make. Keeping a positive perspective can involve an enormous amount of mental effort that may have been mitigated by better choices.
  - marktangotango 7y ago
    You’re making choices for your future self that your future self probably won’t appreciate!
  - 10000100001010 7y ago
    I'm about to finish paying off about $65,000 dollars that I took out for my CS degree. I graduated 4 years ago and have a good paying job. So, I'm lucky to have to be paying it off early. However, even with my 6 figure income, paying off this large sum off money has been a huge burden and has majorly affected other choices in my life like investments, career (I.e. I had to take the high paying jobs), buying a house, etc etc. If I could go back and do it again I would avoid any student loans like the plague they are. Edit: just saw your edit reply to above edit :) that is much more reasonable than the situation that I put myself into. Still, I would recommend doing everything you can to avoid the debt. Paying back 1000's of dollars is a large burden.
Retric 7y ago
Thinking it’s a good idea is why so many people regret doing exactly what you’re doing. The simple reality is collage class are incredibly shallow introductions to the subject matter and hardly worth the price of admission. That’s somewhat offset by credentials, but your comparison is high school which says more about how bad high school is than how great collage is. No joke, at one point I tutoring my friends in some classes I had not taken. Your professors may have a deep understanding of the subject, but they need to dumb the material down so people can pick it up over ~15 weeks.
AmericanChopper 7y ago
Do you think your opinion will change at all as time goes by and you’re left with a large debt to pay off, and a degree that you know will likely not have any impact on your earning potential? It’s great that you’re satisfying your intellectual needs. But a lot of people in your exact position eventually end up wanting other people to foot the bill.
- 50 7y ago
  Thank you for question! And no, I don't think so. I think the important thing here to note is that studying philosophy―particularly phenomenology, existentialism, and theology―feels all-encompassing true and real compared to that of anything else, at least for me personally, at the moment. And anyways, as I noted on another comment on this thread: I don't mind what happens. I don't mind working a blue collar job to repay my loans or in order to make a living. Even despite stemming from a first-gen, low-income household and sometimes having this strong, finger-aching yearning to take care of my parents financially, I don't mind what happens because things, I hold, work out in their own imperfect perfection. Again, as naive as this all may sound.
yters 7y ago
I think you are taking an excellent route, but don't think you can't have both: a philosophy degree (spectacular!) and a decent living. Analytic philosophy is very STEMish. Majoring in the logically rigorous courses sets you up for many monied disciplines (besides programming). Even better if you can minor in something like coding, accounting, or even a trade. Doing ROTC can get you a scholarship, guaranteed job out of college, many opportunities beyond, and serving in the military is in itself a worthwhile endeavor.

by 50 7y ago

monoideism 7y ago

> Look, I'm studying undergrad philosophy...Am I getting into debt? A fair bit.. Is it worth the trade off? I certainly think so. Will I say that five years after I graduate? Not sure but most likely. Spoiler. Been there, done that. Unless you're at an Ivy, if you're majoring in philosophy, you'll not think it was worth it in five years. My sin was Classics, but similar outcome. Assuming you're on HN because you're teaching yourself programming, the sting will be somewhat lessened (that's the route I took), since you'll at least be able to get a job. But it'll still sting to make those massive loan payments knowing that nothing you learned is helping you with your professional life, and that things like philosophy, mathematics, and languages (and computer science!) can be learned just as easily with discipline, YouTube, and a few good textbooks. It's very easy to delay the pain of loan payments when you're in school, but they'll be there waiting for you, inevitably, through sickness and health, marriage and divorce. If you have endless curiosity, college is even less worth it. Instead, being loan-free gives you the freedom to work in areas that truly intrigue you, and to work in very low-paying internships while you're learning. But I know I won't convince you. Likely no one could have convinced me at the time (although only one person tried, once). Edit: if this were the 1970s or earlier, when you could pay for college classes from waiting tables or a $10,000 loan (inflation adjusted!), I'd absolutely say go for it. But taking out even $50,000 in debt at age 18 for anything less than a guaranteed job with a good income (physician assistant, nursing, accounting) is mortgaging your future. Taking out $200,000, which is the going rate for most [edit: should read "many, private", and is probably closer to $100,000] liberal arts 4-year-degrees, is insanity, but between culture BS about degrees and "academic counselors", I know it may not seem that way to you right now.

50 7y ago
Thank you for the input. It's interesting, and hey, it might be the case down the road. But my main philosophy behind my seemingly naive post is this: I don't mind what happens. I'm of the opinion that it doesn't matter what is but how you think about what is that matters. Edit: I saw your edit, and again, thank you for your input. I would just like to note that I'll be graduating with ~12k in debt - I went to a community college first while living with my parents and transferred to a UC, and California's higher education system supports low-income, first generation households fairly well - to which I owe great gratitude to.
- Cougher 7y ago
  "I'm of the opinion that it doesn't matter what is but how you think about what is that matters." That's a false dichotomy that will be difficult to fully adhere to when you spend your next decades as an adult. Yes, perspective matters; a LOT. But "what is" and "what was" can matter a lot too. Imagining that you can just think your way out of hard spots can lead to complacency about the choices that you make. Keeping a positive perspective can involve an enormous amount of mental effort that may have been mitigated by better choices.
- marktangotango 7y ago
  You’re making choices for your future self that your future self probably won’t appreciate!
- 10000100001010 7y ago
  I'm about to finish paying off about $65,000 dollars that I took out for my CS degree. I graduated 4 years ago and have a good paying job. So, I'm lucky to have to be paying it off early. However, even with my 6 figure income, paying off this large sum off money has been a huge burden and has majorly affected other choices in my life like investments, career (I.e. I had to take the high paying jobs), buying a house, etc etc. If I could go back and do it again I would avoid any student loans like the plague they are. Edit: just saw your edit reply to above edit :) that is much more reasonable than the situation that I put myself into. Still, I would recommend doing everything you can to avoid the debt. Paying back 1000's of dollars is a large burden.

Retric 7y ago

Thinking it’s a good idea is why so many people regret doing exactly what you’re doing. The simple reality is collage class are incredibly shallow introductions to the subject matter and hardly worth the price of admission. That’s somewhat offset by credentials, but your comparison is high school which says more about how bad high school is than how great collage is. No joke, at one point I tutoring my friends in some classes I had not taken. Your professors may have a deep understanding of the subject, but they need to dumb the material down so people can pick it up over ~15 weeks.

AmericanChopper 7y ago

Do you think your opinion will change at all as time goes by and you’re left with a large debt to pay off, and a degree that you know will likely not have any impact on your earning potential? It’s great that you’re satisfying your intellectual needs. But a lot of people in your exact position eventually end up wanting other people to foot the bill.

50 7y ago
Thank you for question! And no, I don't think so. I think the important thing here to note is that studying philosophy―particularly phenomenology, existentialism, and theology―feels all-encompassing true and real compared to that of anything else, at least for me personally, at the moment. And anyways, as I noted on another comment on this thread: I don't mind what happens. I don't mind working a blue collar job to repay my loans or in order to make a living. Even despite stemming from a first-gen, low-income household and sometimes having this strong, finger-aching yearning to take care of my parents financially, I don't mind what happens because things, I hold, work out in their own imperfect perfection. Again, as naive as this all may sound.

yters 7y ago

I think you are taking an excellent route, but don't think you can't have both: a philosophy degree (spectacular!) and a decent living. Analytic philosophy is very STEMish. Majoring in the logically rigorous courses sets you up for many monied disciplines (besides programming). Even better if you can minor in something like coding, accounting, or even a trade. Doing ROTC can get you a scholarship, guaranteed job out of college, many opportunities beyond, and serving in the military is in itself a worthwhile endeavor.