4 ms·

I lately saw presentation of VW also claiming how EV is several times “simpler” and “less parts”, and then the next slide was that their next gen similar size c

by jaakl 7y ago

I lately saw presentation of VW also claiming how EV is several times “simpler” and “less parts”, and then the next slide was that their next gen similar size car is “only” about 2 times more expensive than ICE. 2 times simpler should convert to 2 times cheaper also, or what I miss here? Lithium is so expensive nowadays?

sudosysgen 7y ago
It's just not scaled up enough yet.
anon73044 7y ago
Certainly more copper in an EV compared to an ICE vehicle, and the batteries more expensive as well, I presume. I know Tesla's use electric brake calipers as oppose to the normal hydraulic ones, not sure if other manufacturers are doing the same. Since the electric motor is so much smaller than an engine/transmission combo they'd have to rearrange most of the front end crumple zones. Add to that the cost of x5-10 software and UI devs.
- yellowapple 7y ago
  > Add to that the cost of x5-10 software and UI devs That problem seems to be self-inflicted, though.
  - anon73044 7y ago
    Until Apple or Android can unify car's entire UI it'll be up to the manufacturers or whoever they contract it to. And who's going to design and build an EV without a touchscreen these days?
  - Marsymars 7y ago
    I'd love to see a Mazda-designed, touchscreen-free EV. Does there even currently exist a consumer EV without a touchscreen?
    - icebraining 7y ago
      Bollinger's models, but they're trucks.
      - yellowapple 7y ago
        And also absurdly expensive, to the point of making Tesla look affordable.
unlinked_dll 7y ago
what you’re missing is that complexity doesn’t correlate to price
- jaakl 7y ago
  Doesn’t it? In very basic level price=cost of input materials+workforce+profit. Amount of needed work is directly correlated to complexity. Therefore with other variables same simpler should mean cheaper. Here some other variables may be not same. Either economy of scale is not in favor yet, standardization and production levels are still low. Or higher profits are taken.
  - unlinked_dll 7y ago
    Price is determined by what people will pay, not by the cost to produce something. This is driven by supply and demand, while complexity can reduce the available supply it is not the only factor and for many products it’s not even close to the dominant one. As well complexity in design doesn’t absolutely correlate to manufacturing costs. Usually that’s dominated by labor, and extremely complex systems are designed to be made with less labor.
baybal2 7y ago
No, lithium price makes very little difference to lithium battery price. All those "industry analysts" from McKinseys and such suggesting it have never set their foot in a battery factory. The biggest price components of lithium cells is cobalt oxide used in cathode plates, followed by nickel in cell chemistries using them. Both are not cheap at all, and their supply is famously unstable. Metallurgical cobalt goes at $30-40 per kilo in China, and battery grade cobalt oxide at almost the same price. So for a 200kg battery pack, you will be paying 2000-3000$ only for the cathode material. Second after this is plainly volumes. Tooling costs are very high. Even model 3 and BAIC EU are rather low volume by industry standards. You have to add to that that EVs don't share chassis/platform with any other high volume car, and thus can't share the bodywork tooling costs.
- brohee 7y ago
  We start to see platform sharing between thermal and electric. E.g. Peugeot new e-208 have very high part commonality with regular 208.
Gibbon1 7y ago
For EV's the cost is about the batteries and manufacturing scaling. I think the cost of battery grade lithium isn't the full story on battery costs. Guestimation on my part is it's around $1000-2000 per car.
kortilla 7y ago
A 100 pound bar of gold is 100 times simpler than ICE cars. Guess which one is more expensive?
usrusr 7y ago
ICE cars don't have a moderately complex subassembly that is repeated thousands of times per car. "Less parts" is only true if you count classes instead of instances (pardon the OOP nomenclature).

by jaakl 7y ago

sudosysgen 7y ago

It's just not scaled up enough yet.

anon73044 7y ago

Certainly more copper in an EV compared to an ICE vehicle, and the batteries more expensive as well, I presume. I know Tesla's use electric brake calipers as oppose to the normal hydraulic ones, not sure if other manufacturers are doing the same. Since the electric motor is so much smaller than an engine/transmission combo they'd have to rearrange most of the front end crumple zones. Add to that the cost of x5-10 software and UI devs.

yellowapple 7y ago
> Add to that the cost of x5-10 software and UI devs That problem seems to be self-inflicted, though.
- anon73044 7y ago
  Until Apple or Android can unify car's entire UI it'll be up to the manufacturers or whoever they contract it to. And who's going to design and build an EV without a touchscreen these days?
- Marsymars 7y ago
  I'd love to see a Mazda-designed, touchscreen-free EV. Does there even currently exist a consumer EV without a touchscreen?
  - icebraining 7y ago
    Bollinger's models, but they're trucks.
    - yellowapple 7y ago
      And also absurdly expensive, to the point of making Tesla look affordable.

unlinked_dll 7y ago

what you’re missing is that complexity doesn’t correlate to price

jaakl 7y ago
Doesn’t it? In very basic level price=cost of input materials+workforce+profit. Amount of needed work is directly correlated to complexity. Therefore with other variables same simpler should mean cheaper. Here some other variables may be not same. Either economy of scale is not in favor yet, standardization and production levels are still low. Or higher profits are taken.
- unlinked_dll 7y ago
  Price is determined by what people will pay, not by the cost to produce something. This is driven by supply and demand, while complexity can reduce the available supply it is not the only factor and for many products it’s not even close to the dominant one. As well complexity in design doesn’t absolutely correlate to manufacturing costs. Usually that’s dominated by labor, and extremely complex systems are designed to be made with less labor.

baybal2 7y ago

No, lithium price makes very little difference to lithium battery price. All those "industry analysts" from McKinseys and such suggesting it have never set their foot in a battery factory. The biggest price components of lithium cells is cobalt oxide used in cathode plates, followed by nickel in cell chemistries using them. Both are not cheap at all, and their supply is famously unstable. Metallurgical cobalt goes at $30-40 per kilo in China, and battery grade cobalt oxide at almost the same price. So for a 200kg battery pack, you will be paying 2000-3000$ only for the cathode material. Second after this is plainly volumes. Tooling costs are very high. Even model 3 and BAIC EU are rather low volume by industry standards. You have to add to that that EVs don't share chassis/platform with any other high volume car, and thus can't share the bodywork tooling costs.

brohee 7y ago
We start to see platform sharing between thermal and electric. E.g. Peugeot new e-208 have very high part commonality with regular 208.

Gibbon1 7y ago

For EV's the cost is about the batteries and manufacturing scaling. I think the cost of battery grade lithium isn't the full story on battery costs. Guestimation on my part is it's around $1000-2000 per car.

kortilla 7y ago

A 100 pound bar of gold is 100 times simpler than ICE cars. Guess which one is more expensive?

usrusr 7y ago

ICE cars don't have a moderately complex subassembly that is repeated thousands of times per car. "Less parts" is only true if you count classes instead of instances (pardon the OOP nomenclature).