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Interesting to see so many new entrants to the car manufacturing market. I guess internal combustion manufacturing was so dominated by the big boys in US-DE-JP

Interesting to see so many new entrants to the car manufacturing market. I guess internal combustion manufacturing was so dominated by the big boys in US-DE-JP that no one really had the muscle/margins to get into the fight at that point. From what I've gleamed, electric motors are a lot simpler (less moving parts).

hangonhn 7y ago
Yeah the smart money has really gone into batteries because that's where all the "secret" sauce is. Induction motors are pretty well known at this point. There are companies working on better motors but the expected ROI is rather low and the expected effect on the car overall is low. Advances in batteries in terms of weight or density would be very dramatic because most electric cars are designed around the battery pack.
- taneq 7y ago
  > Induction motors are pretty well known at this point. So what about this switched reluctance witchcraft that apparently gives the newer Teslas a significant advantage?
  - baybal2 7y ago
    It doesn't. Power to weight of ordinary well done motors is approaching 5kw per kilogram, and top tier ones even passed 10. Weight of a motor is not an issue for practical considerations for EVs
    - taneq 7y ago
      So why do they have a huge Wh/km advantage over rivals such as Porsche? https://www.xautoworld.com/opinion/taycan-201-tesla-range/ https://www.xautoworld.com/opinion/taycan-201-tesla-range/
      - baybal2 7y ago
        Less aggressive regenerative breaking to compensate for cooling deficiency, and less efficient inverter. Tesla being able to "turn off" front motor, and lack of differential probably also adds a little bit to efficiency.
      - agumonkey 7y ago
        I thought switched reluctance was about cost reduction (with maybe a few percent efficiency increase). Maybe weight too.
        hangonhn 7y ago
        It's more efficient than an induction motor. An induction motor has the most torque when it's at rest but then generates its own resistance as it spins up and so loses efficiency. In the dual motor setup, Tesla use both types to get the best of both worlds: induction to accelerate and then it cuts off at some point and uses only the switched reluctance for efficiency.
        baybal2 7y ago
        Man, induction motor has 0 torque when at rest
        hangonhn 7y ago
        My mistake. It has the most torque when it first starts spinning.
uniformlyrandom 7y ago
This is a purely political statement. It is pretty easy to release cars on paper. A market for political statements has always had a pretty low entrance barrier, all you need is a good PR manager.
ppseafield 7y ago
Perhaps also the demand for them is large, and the 'big boys' either ignoring or actively hampering their development requires others to step in.
duxup 7y ago
In the early days of the automobile there were hundreds of manufactures in the US alone IIRC. This seems similar in terms of seeing a lot of folks taking a shot at it. We're seeing a similar thing in China. Most of the companies have no chance as they're behind the ball on tech, logistics, etc.
JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> so many new entrants to the car manufacturing market Electric cars are easier to make than modern ICE vehicles.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
jaakl 7y ago
I lately saw presentation of VW also claiming how EV is several times “simpler” and “less parts”, and then the next slide was that their next gen similar size car is “only” about 2 times more expensive than ICE. 2 times simpler should convert to 2 times cheaper also, or what I miss here? Lithium is so expensive nowadays?
- sudosysgen 7y ago
  It's just not scaled up enough yet.
- anon73044 7y ago
  Certainly more copper in an EV compared to an ICE vehicle, and the batteries more expensive as well, I presume. I know Tesla's use electric brake calipers as oppose to the normal hydraulic ones, not sure if other manufacturers are doing the same. Since the electric motor is so much smaller than an engine/transmission combo they'd have to rearrange most of the front end crumple zones. Add to that the cost of x5-10 software and UI devs.
  - yellowapple 7y ago
    > Add to that the cost of x5-10 software and UI devs That problem seems to be self-inflicted, though.
    - anon73044 7y ago
      Until Apple or Android can unify car's entire UI it'll be up to the manufacturers or whoever they contract it to. And who's going to design and build an EV without a touchscreen these days?
    - Marsymars 7y ago
      I'd love to see a Mazda-designed, touchscreen-free EV. Does there even currently exist a consumer EV without a touchscreen?
      - 7y ago

hangonhn 7y ago

Yeah the smart money has really gone into batteries because that's where all the "secret" sauce is. Induction motors are pretty well known at this point. There are companies working on better motors but the expected ROI is rather low and the expected effect on the car overall is low. Advances in batteries in terms of weight or density would be very dramatic because most electric cars are designed around the battery pack.

taneq 7y ago
> Induction motors are pretty well known at this point. So what about this switched reluctance witchcraft that apparently gives the newer Teslas a significant advantage?
- baybal2 7y ago
  It doesn't. Power to weight of ordinary well done motors is approaching 5kw per kilogram, and top tier ones even passed 10. Weight of a motor is not an issue for practical considerations for EVs
  - taneq 7y ago
    So why do they have a huge Wh/km advantage over rivals such as Porsche? https://www.xautoworld.com/opinion/taycan-201-tesla-range/ https://www.xautoworld.com/opinion/taycan-201-tesla-range/
    - baybal2 7y ago
      Less aggressive regenerative breaking to compensate for cooling deficiency, and less efficient inverter. Tesla being able to "turn off" front motor, and lack of differential probably also adds a little bit to efficiency.
    - agumonkey 7y ago
      I thought switched reluctance was about cost reduction (with maybe a few percent efficiency increase). Maybe weight too.
      - hangonhn 7y ago
        It's more efficient than an induction motor. An induction motor has the most torque when it's at rest but then generates its own resistance as it spins up and so loses efficiency. In the dual motor setup, Tesla use both types to get the best of both worlds: induction to accelerate and then it cuts off at some point and uses only the switched reluctance for efficiency.
        baybal2 7y ago
        Man, induction motor has 0 torque when at rest
        hangonhn 7y ago
        My mistake. It has the most torque when it first starts spinning.

uniformlyrandom 7y ago

This is a purely political statement. It is pretty easy to release cars on paper. A market for political statements has always had a pretty low entrance barrier, all you need is a good PR manager.

ppseafield 7y ago

Perhaps also the demand for them is large, and the 'big boys' either ignoring or actively hampering their development requires others to step in.

duxup 7y ago

In the early days of the automobile there were hundreds of manufactures in the US alone IIRC. This seems similar in terms of seeing a lot of folks taking a shot at it. We're seeing a similar thing in China. Most of the companies have no chance as they're behind the ball on tech, logistics, etc.

JumpCrisscross 7y ago

> so many new entrants to the car manufacturing market Electric cars are easier to make than modern ICE vehicles.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

jaakl 7y ago

I lately saw presentation of VW also claiming how EV is several times “simpler” and “less parts”, and then the next slide was that their next gen similar size car is “only” about 2 times more expensive than ICE. 2 times simpler should convert to 2 times cheaper also, or what I miss here? Lithium is so expensive nowadays?

sudosysgen 7y ago
It's just not scaled up enough yet.
anon73044 7y ago
Certainly more copper in an EV compared to an ICE vehicle, and the batteries more expensive as well, I presume. I know Tesla's use electric brake calipers as oppose to the normal hydraulic ones, not sure if other manufacturers are doing the same. Since the electric motor is so much smaller than an engine/transmission combo they'd have to rearrange most of the front end crumple zones. Add to that the cost of x5-10 software and UI devs.
- yellowapple 7y ago
  > Add to that the cost of x5-10 software and UI devs That problem seems to be self-inflicted, though.
  - anon73044 7y ago
    Until Apple or Android can unify car's entire UI it'll be up to the manufacturers or whoever they contract it to. And who's going to design and build an EV without a touchscreen these days?
  - Marsymars 7y ago
    I'd love to see a Mazda-designed, touchscreen-free EV. Does there even currently exist a consumer EV without a touchscreen?
    - 7y ago