4 ms·

Be careful that you are at a company or, even better, in an industry that isn't rife with ageism and where there is a clear and well defined path for more senio

Be careful that you are at a company or, even better, in an industry that isn't rife with ageism and where there is a clear and well defined path for more senior ICs to continue to develop an age appropriate resume (increasingly strategic contributions while remaining current with latest industry tools and practices) that will serve them well if/when they are looking for work at 55. In software this is very often not the case. A 55 year old still fluent in hot tech and a lot of strategic work as an architect, interventionist, mentor to younger devs, etc and who can demonstrate all that in their resume will probably do ok. A 55 year old who is "just" a coder will often have a rough time (vs 28 year olds getting actively recruited 5x/week). In other industries, like EE where I also worked for several years, this is much much less true. Very senior ICs are highly valued and it is common for teams to be a blend of engineers from fresh grads upto near-retirees.

gfs78 7y ago
Not an easy problem to solve. And this is why, given the odds, a career in tech is probably a bad decision. To avoid ageism while being an IC you need to find a job in a niche where the domain is CS and/or ENG based (as in embedded, aerospace, or even relational database engines) and these jobs are far and in between. Beware: jobs like Facebook seem to be CS based but they aren´t (that´s why their programmer average age is 27). The CS problems they have are due to arbitrary complexity and they are short term. Companies like these are media companies.
- smnrchrds 7y ago
  Do these jobs pay as well as typical tech jobs?
  - blueboo 7y ago
    The point being claimed is that they pay better after a certain point, say, 40.
- scarface74 7y ago
  What’s wrong with as the parent poster said “develop[ing] an age appropriate resume (increasingly strategic contributions while remaining current with latest industry tools and practices)”? I’m 45, still an IC mostly but my next role whenever I decide to leave my current job, will probably be working for a consulting company. Currently, I am “more equal than others” and have more influence based solely on my “relationship and expert” power.
  - itronitron 7y ago
    the problem with an age appropriate resume is that it signals your age, and most companies aren't interested in any 'relationship and expert' power that candidates can bring since they have already filled those positions.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      I’m not seeing that. What I’m seeing is that a lot of companies are hiring cheap (relatively speaking) junior or outsourced developers and a few “architects”. In the cloud consulting space or the generic “digital transformation” space, you have a few customer facing consultants and lots of low paid people doing the grunt work. I am not seeing any shortage of openings for either “principal software engineers”, or architects. Of course, I’m staying away from the west coast. The major cloud providers and their partners are hiring in most major cities as long as you’re close to a major airport. I happen to live near the world’s busiest airport.
- joshuamorton 7y ago
  None of your conclusions follow from your premise. I could just as easily claim that coders who refuse to develop new skills and keep up with a changing environment will eventually find themselves sidelined, due to their inability to adapt to changing needs. Since most of those middle aged people started programming 30 years ago now, they then move into environments where the technologies also haven't evolved in 20-30 years: embedded, aerospace, and dated DB work. This doesn't preclude people who can evolve from keeping up as mostly-just-coders in a changing world. Calling the complexity inherent in something like facebook "arbitrary" as opposed to the complexity in embedded work as innate just implies that you don't understand the "CS" problems that Facebook (or similar) deal with, and I can imagine that a company like Facebook might not want to hire someone who, for whatever reason, is unable to accurately analyze the complexity of their problem space, especially at a more senior level.
  - gfs78 7y ago
    I find the wording of your last paragraph a little insulting. Please answer: do you think aerospace, embedded and relational DB engines is dated work that has not evolved?
    - joshuamorton 7y ago
      > I find the wording of your last paragraph a little insulting. And calling modern app development's probelms " due to arbitrary complexity and they are short term" isn't? I do think that much of the aerospace technology industry uses dated methods. Same with much of the embedded field. There are certainly places that, for example apply modern best practices to embedded work, but most of those places are the exact same things that you're writing off: Google, Facebook, etc. Have embedded projects that follow best practices. Focusing on aerospace specifically, I know of plenty of people who work in aerospace and don't use version control. That's plainly unacceptable. And I'd argue that the problems encountered there are much more self-imposed than at a Facebook. Db engines again depend. There's a number of really cool modern relational database work, but the places where it happens (postgres, Google, cockroach labs) aren't places where someone who isn't interested in self growth are going to succeed. The tl;dr here is that the impression I get from your comment is that you're describing a developer who let their skills stagnate because they learning things one way and don't want to keep up with changing processes. The fields you mentioned are fields that have such a stigma attached to them, and not unjustly. It doesn't apply to every person or project in those fields, but the people it doesn't apply to would succeed anywhere anyway.
pm90 7y ago
I'm sure such ageism exists, but you also need to consider the nature of software development. Just over the past decade, we transitioned from one model of deploying software to a totally different one, evolved into a somewhat widely accepted orchestration platform etc. The nature of software developments seems to required that one be capable of learning new technology and be comfortable with understanding new frameworks and such. I've encountered engineers older than me who are just as excited by new technology as I am and are willing to learn about it and offer their perspective and wisdom as to how its different from what they were used to before, conversations which I find fascinating. There are also those who I will call less-enthusiastic about the changes; and quickly get overwhelmed by change and either move into management positions or into roles or companies with less change. I don't think there is anything fundamentally better about one kind of engineer v/s the other. The problem is only when you place an engineer who enjoys the change in a role that doesn't involve much of it, or vice versa.
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  To some extent the reality doesn't matter. If the market perceives me as washed up just because I'm 55 then I'd be foolish not to have an alternative lined up. No matter how enthusiastic or flexible you are you will always be trying to push past recruiters perceptions.
- eagsalazar2 7y ago
  Couldn't agree more and there is an age dimension to those personality types. Generally 24 yr olds have a very "I know nothing, tell me what to do, I'm excited" attitude while people with a mountain of experience have opinions of their own and, human nature, frequently are resentful or stubborn about being told to do things that feel like reinventing the wheel or a step backward by people more jr than them who did decide to go into management. But following fads in an ever-improving upward spiral (I'm not one of these people who thinks the industry is going in circles) of productivity and expressiveness is just part of the industry reality. Maybe 28 year olds really are more suited, on average, to that reality? They key thing is, even if that is sometimes true, to judge people individually since of course there are older devs who are totally amazing, creative, and flexible and there are 28 year olds that are completely stubborn, unhappy pains in the ass.
bradj 7y ago
My experience is that energy companies, especially the international oil majors, are very good at doing this. Employees rotate in and out of management and IC positions throughout their careers as either part of climbing the ladder or just leveraging their skills in a new way.

gfs78 7y ago

Not an easy problem to solve. And this is why, given the odds, a career in tech is probably a bad decision. To avoid ageism while being an IC you need to find a job in a niche where the domain is CS and/or ENG based (as in embedded, aerospace, or even relational database engines) and these jobs are far and in between. Beware: jobs like Facebook seem to be CS based but they aren´t (that´s why their programmer average age is 27). The CS problems they have are due to arbitrary complexity and they are short term. Companies like these are media companies.

smnrchrds 7y ago
Do these jobs pay as well as typical tech jobs?
- blueboo 7y ago
  The point being claimed is that they pay better after a certain point, say, 40.
scarface74 7y ago
What’s wrong with as the parent poster said “develop[ing] an age appropriate resume (increasingly strategic contributions while remaining current with latest industry tools and practices)”? I’m 45, still an IC mostly but my next role whenever I decide to leave my current job, will probably be working for a consulting company. Currently, I am “more equal than others” and have more influence based solely on my “relationship and expert” power.
- itronitron 7y ago
  the problem with an age appropriate resume is that it signals your age, and most companies aren't interested in any 'relationship and expert' power that candidates can bring since they have already filled those positions.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    I’m not seeing that. What I’m seeing is that a lot of companies are hiring cheap (relatively speaking) junior or outsourced developers and a few “architects”. In the cloud consulting space or the generic “digital transformation” space, you have a few customer facing consultants and lots of low paid people doing the grunt work. I am not seeing any shortage of openings for either “principal software engineers”, or architects. Of course, I’m staying away from the west coast. The major cloud providers and their partners are hiring in most major cities as long as you’re close to a major airport. I happen to live near the world’s busiest airport.
joshuamorton 7y ago
None of your conclusions follow from your premise. I could just as easily claim that coders who refuse to develop new skills and keep up with a changing environment will eventually find themselves sidelined, due to their inability to adapt to changing needs. Since most of those middle aged people started programming 30 years ago now, they then move into environments where the technologies also haven't evolved in 20-30 years: embedded, aerospace, and dated DB work. This doesn't preclude people who can evolve from keeping up as mostly-just-coders in a changing world. Calling the complexity inherent in something like facebook "arbitrary" as opposed to the complexity in embedded work as innate just implies that you don't understand the "CS" problems that Facebook (or similar) deal with, and I can imagine that a company like Facebook might not want to hire someone who, for whatever reason, is unable to accurately analyze the complexity of their problem space, especially at a more senior level.
- gfs78 7y ago
  I find the wording of your last paragraph a little insulting. Please answer: do you think aerospace, embedded and relational DB engines is dated work that has not evolved?
  - joshuamorton 7y ago
    > I find the wording of your last paragraph a little insulting. And calling modern app development's probelms " due to arbitrary complexity and they are short term" isn't? I do think that much of the aerospace technology industry uses dated methods. Same with much of the embedded field. There are certainly places that, for example apply modern best practices to embedded work, but most of those places are the exact same things that you're writing off: Google, Facebook, etc. Have embedded projects that follow best practices. Focusing on aerospace specifically, I know of plenty of people who work in aerospace and don't use version control. That's plainly unacceptable. And I'd argue that the problems encountered there are much more self-imposed than at a Facebook. Db engines again depend. There's a number of really cool modern relational database work, but the places where it happens (postgres, Google, cockroach labs) aren't places where someone who isn't interested in self growth are going to succeed. The tl;dr here is that the impression I get from your comment is that you're describing a developer who let their skills stagnate because they learning things one way and don't want to keep up with changing processes. The fields you mentioned are fields that have such a stigma attached to them, and not unjustly. It doesn't apply to every person or project in those fields, but the people it doesn't apply to would succeed anywhere anyway.

pm90 7y ago

I'm sure such ageism exists, but you also need to consider the nature of software development. Just over the past decade, we transitioned from one model of deploying software to a totally different one, evolved into a somewhat widely accepted orchestration platform etc. The nature of software developments seems to required that one be capable of learning new technology and be comfortable with understanding new frameworks and such. I've encountered engineers older than me who are just as excited by new technology as I am and are willing to learn about it and offer their perspective and wisdom as to how its different from what they were used to before, conversations which I find fascinating. There are also those who I will call less-enthusiastic about the changes; and quickly get overwhelmed by change and either move into management positions or into roles or companies with less change. I don't think there is anything fundamentally better about one kind of engineer v/s the other. The problem is only when you place an engineer who enjoys the change in a role that doesn't involve much of it, or vice versa.

tonyedgecombe 7y ago
To some extent the reality doesn't matter. If the market perceives me as washed up just because I'm 55 then I'd be foolish not to have an alternative lined up. No matter how enthusiastic or flexible you are you will always be trying to push past recruiters perceptions.
eagsalazar2 7y ago
Couldn't agree more and there is an age dimension to those personality types. Generally 24 yr olds have a very "I know nothing, tell me what to do, I'm excited" attitude while people with a mountain of experience have opinions of their own and, human nature, frequently are resentful or stubborn about being told to do things that feel like reinventing the wheel or a step backward by people more jr than them who did decide to go into management. But following fads in an ever-improving upward spiral (I'm not one of these people who thinks the industry is going in circles) of productivity and expressiveness is just part of the industry reality. Maybe 28 year olds really are more suited, on average, to that reality? They key thing is, even if that is sometimes true, to judge people individually since of course there are older devs who are totally amazing, creative, and flexible and there are 28 year olds that are completely stubborn, unhappy pains in the ass.

bradj 7y ago

My experience is that energy companies, especially the international oil majors, are very good at doing this. Employees rotate in and out of management and IC positions throughout their careers as either part of climbing the ladder or just leveraging their skills in a new way.