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Is this correlation or causation though? Are young people who get through a degree course then super focused on getting as much money as they can because they

Is this correlation or causation though? Are young people who get through a degree course then super focused on getting as much money as they can because they have all this debt? As opposed to people who don't have mountains of student debt, and can then afford to take lower-paying, better-for-their-life jobs? Huge debt is really stressful, and hard on mental health. I don't know the comparative suicide rates of electricians and art grads, but I'd suspect art school is effectively worse for your health than a trade. People generally have two or even three careers now. Migrating from electrician to manager is about as easy as migrating from software developer to manager.

learc83 7y ago
>As opposed to people who don't have mountains of student debt, and can then afford to take lower-paying, better-for-their-life jobs With income based repayment, you pay 10% of your disposable income (income over 1.5x the poverty rate) , so this isn't really much of an issue.
- marcus_holmes 7y ago
  To maintain your debt, yes. But to clear it, and finally be free of it, you need to earn a lot of money. That is bound to focus the mind somewhat.
  - learc83 7y ago
    Or wait 20 years until it's cancelled. People regularly take out 30 year home loans much larger than the average student loan debt without debilitating psychiatric problems.
    - tengbretson 7y ago
      This isn't comparable in the least, since there's no equity built up over the course of paying off student debt.
      - learc83 7y ago
        Most people are never going to be able to access the equity unless they retire and downsize. And people end up in situations where they can't make payments and have to walk away and take the credit hit all the time. Worrying about the theoretical amount you owe instead of the actual amount you have to pay is just dumb.
roenxi 7y ago
There is also another aspect to the correlation-causation argument. The kids in college are presumably the smart ones in the cohort. We expect them to have much better outcomes than the rest based on intelligence even without getting a degree.
- marcus_holmes 7y ago
  Does intelligence correlate to either education or wealth? I didn't think it did...
  - loopdedoo 7y ago
    Intelligence strongly correlated with education (~0.5), and adult intelligence is mostly determined by genetics. https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/39/5/1362/802787 https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/39/5/1362/802787 The correlation between intelligence and income also substantial, but seemingly not quite as strong. The correlation between intelligence and wealth is weaker still. https://www.bcaresearch.com/images/Peter_PPT_presentation%206.pdf https://www.bcaresearch.com/images/Peter_PPT_presentation%20... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0160289607000219 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01602...
    - marcus_holmes 7y ago
      interesting, thanks for the info. I've met some complete idiots with PhD's, some utter morons with huge incomes, and some geniuses who didn't complete high school. But I guess that's not the normal perception.
  - JamesBarney 7y ago
    It correlates strongly with education, reasonably well with income, and only little with wealth.
- JamesBarney 7y ago
  Conscientiousness is a huge factor too, but almost all of a person's attributes that would increase their earning potential also increase their chances of getting into college.

learc83 7y ago

>As opposed to people who don't have mountains of student debt, and can then afford to take lower-paying, better-for-their-life jobs With income based repayment, you pay 10% of your disposable income (income over 1.5x the poverty rate) , so this isn't really much of an issue.

marcus_holmes 7y ago
To maintain your debt, yes. But to clear it, and finally be free of it, you need to earn a lot of money. That is bound to focus the mind somewhat.
- learc83 7y ago
  Or wait 20 years until it's cancelled. People regularly take out 30 year home loans much larger than the average student loan debt without debilitating psychiatric problems.
  - tengbretson 7y ago
    This isn't comparable in the least, since there's no equity built up over the course of paying off student debt.
    - learc83 7y ago
      Most people are never going to be able to access the equity unless they retire and downsize. And people end up in situations where they can't make payments and have to walk away and take the credit hit all the time. Worrying about the theoretical amount you owe instead of the actual amount you have to pay is just dumb.

roenxi 7y ago

There is also another aspect to the correlation-causation argument. The kids in college are presumably the smart ones in the cohort. We expect them to have much better outcomes than the rest based on intelligence even without getting a degree.

marcus_holmes 7y ago
Does intelligence correlate to either education or wealth? I didn't think it did...
- loopdedoo 7y ago
  Intelligence strongly correlated with education (~0.5), and adult intelligence is mostly determined by genetics. https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/39/5/1362/802787 https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/39/5/1362/802787 The correlation between intelligence and income also substantial, but seemingly not quite as strong. The correlation between intelligence and wealth is weaker still. https://www.bcaresearch.com/images/Peter_PPT_presentation%206.pdf https://www.bcaresearch.com/images/Peter_PPT_presentation%20... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0160289607000219 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01602...
  - marcus_holmes 7y ago
    interesting, thanks for the info. I've met some complete idiots with PhD's, some utter morons with huge incomes, and some geniuses who didn't complete high school. But I guess that's not the normal perception.
- JamesBarney 7y ago
  It correlates strongly with education, reasonably well with income, and only little with wealth.
JamesBarney 7y ago
Conscientiousness is a huge factor too, but almost all of a person's attributes that would increase their earning potential also increase their chances of getting into college.