5 ms·

How Microbiomes Affect Fear

146 points by ohjeez 7y ago

tsomctl 7y ago
> The team speculated that the microbiome might produce certain substances in abundance, with some molecules making their way into the brain. I thought this was already well established with sodium butyrate. Eating hi maize resistant starch is a guaranteed way to give me super vivid, movie like dreams.
- rolltiide 7y ago
  I get extremely vivid, coherent, controllable dreams after being drunk despite the accepted science saying drinking/alcohol inhibits dreams of the sleep state necessary I’ve met a few other people that said the same thing
  - arkades 7y ago
    Inhibits its patterned formation and continuation; doesn’t inhibit it from forming at all.
    - rolltiide 7y ago
      I'd be open to that but a lot of literature on the internet basically says something to the effect of it prevents dreaming
      - arkades 7y ago
        I’m not sure what literature on the Internet says, but its not what I learned in my sleep medicine rotation. shrug
  - loceng 7y ago
    Watch this Joe Rogan interview with Matthew Walker - a sleep expert - for answer that doesn't counter science on alcohol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig
  - grawprog 7y ago
    I get these if I stop smoking weed. Couldn't smoke during a school trip to the States years ago, two of the other people I shared a room with also smoked regularly, all three of us had fucked up vivid dreams for the entire week. I still remember the one on the first night all these years later. I remember vividly watching myself disintegrate while a nuke went off nearby while I was working on something at school. My dad's also said nicotine patches do the same thing while you're on them.
    - loceng 7y ago
      Joe Rogan interview with Matthew Walker - a sleep expert - where they talk about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig
    - DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
      Based only on what you wrote, I see two possible factors: taking a break from weed, or being on a school trip to the U.S.
  - dws 7y ago
    I get weird, vivid dreams after drinking some wines. After a lot of experimentation, I narrowed it down to Lodi Zinfandels, which raises an interesting puzzle: Is it something in the soil, or are the local winemakers in some sort of competition to hotrod their wines?
  - 121789 7y ago
    I’ve always heard that it inhibits REM (dream) sleep, but as it wears off, your body tries to make up for the lost dream sleep and you get the flood of crazy dreams right before you wake up.
    - rolltiide 7y ago
      Interesting I hadn’t heard the follow on part
- bryanrasmussen 7y ago
  What do you mean by movie like? I periodically have dreams in which I do not show up with characters, sometimes voice over narrative, and plots - is this what you mean. An ex-girlfriend of mine called them epic dreams.
krishsai 7y ago
Nice read!
yellow_lead 7y ago
> The researchers performed classical behavioral training on mice, some of which had been given antibiotics to dramatically diminish their microbiomes and some of which had been raised in isolation so that they had no microbiome at all. As someone who is currently on antibiotics, I wonder what effect different antibiotics have on human brains. It would probably not be too hard to setup a similar study, antibiotics are currently thought to be mostly harmless AFAIK.
- johnsimer 7y ago
  FWIW the gut is often referred to as the "second brain", and the microbiome wrecks havoc on the gut
  - taneq 7y ago
    I apologise in advance for being super-pedantic here but it's "wreaks" (meaning "spreads/imposes") rather than "wrecks" (meaning "destroys").
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - drewcoo 7y ago
    Havok-wreaking or not, that microbiome is effectively part of the gut/brain. Thought experiment: What would Dawkins say about gut/brain memetics? How do those "ventremes" propagate?
- sjg007 7y ago
  Being on long term antibiotics is a big issue.
crmrc114 7y ago
I would argue this is not completely new. But still a fascinating look into how the cities of microorganisms on/in us influence our behavior. Toxoplasma gondii, an interesting topic if you want to read about how something in the gut can affect complex behavior in a mammal. Rodents are actually atracted to the smell of cat pee after being infected with T. Gondii. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110817175920.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110817175920.h... For the human perspective; https://www.jstor.org/stable/25223400?seq=1 https://www.jstor.org/stable/25223400?seq=1
- yesenadam 7y ago
  The "for the human perspective" link is to Parasites as causative agents of human affective disorders? The impact of anti-psychotic, mood-stabilizer and anti-parasite medication on Toxoplasma gondii's ability to alter host behaviour (Proceedings Biological Sciences, 2006) Download links: http://gen.lib.rus.ec/scimag/?q=Parasites%20as%20Causative%20Agents%20of%20Human%20Affective%20Disorders http://gen.lib.rus.ec/scimag/?q=Parasites%20as%20Causative%2...
- phkahler 7y ago
  Someone suggested to me that some STDs increase sex drive in humans, but I have not seen any research findings on that. It wouldn't surprise me.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
sebastianconcpt 7y ago
The researchers performed classical behavioral training on mice, some of which had been given antibiotics to dramatically diminish their microbiomes and some of which had been raised in isolation so that they had no microbiome at all. All the mice learned equally well to fear the sound of a tone that was followed by an electric shock. When the scientists discontinued the shocks, the ordinary mice gradually learned not to fear the sound. But in the mice with depleted or nonexistent microbiomes, the fear persisted — they remained more likely to freeze at the sound of the tone than the untreated mice did.
idclip 7y ago
How does one regenerate their micro biome?
- mads 7y ago
  For me, it helps to cut out sugar. I cannot say that I suddenly feel like a new person or anything after a while without sugar, but there is definitely a lift of my my baseline mental stamina, when it comes to handling everyday situations. Sleep also improves without sugar. That may be the cause also.
- phkahler 7y ago
  Fecal matter transplant.
- cpncrunch 7y ago
  Prebiotic and probiotic food.
  - makiki 7y ago
    Very off topic, but.. did you explain how you recovered from CFS somewhere?
  - keyle 7y ago
    There are no scientific evidence that probiotics work or don't work. It's a 50-50 unproven by science. The ones that prove it are sponsored and none disprove it either. My 50c as a long term IBS patient.
    - codyb 7y ago
      Anecdotally, post antibiotics this winter I had some yogurt and my gut started acting more normal within the day. Not data but definitely seemed to help me. Alternatively maybe I was already moving past the hump and would have felt better regardless but after antibiotics I’m not sure how I’d get back to a good baseline easier than yogurt or sauerkraut.
rbanffy 7y ago
It's interesting how much of our personalities relate to our fear responses. For example, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793824/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793824/ notes that the size of the amygdala correlates with economic conservatism. I now wonder if changes in gut flora can predict political changes.
moh_maya 7y ago
So, interesting as the article is, there are two layers of caution one must exercise in interpreting the results. #1. The experiments were conducted in mouse models. Mouse models are remarkably useful, but are NOT human equivalents. It's dangerous to draw a straight line between human behaviour and behaviour in mice. [1] #2. Gut microbiome is the latest in the hype train. It may be important, but again, drawing such a straight (even speculative) line between gut microbiomes and behaviour is.. a reach [2,3,4]. Basically, I am, in general, very wary of any reports or articles that attempt to map results in mice to human behaviour and reports of the gut microbiomes driving autism / Alzheimer's / fear / what have you. This report combines both, so it gets extra red flags, IMO. Just my 2 cents.. not saying this isn't possible, but the bar for assuming this is true is very very high. And the results in the paper are a small first step in a very very long process required to substantiate this hypothesis. [1] https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/325255.php#1 https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/325255.php#1 [2] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-019-0283-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-019-0283-5 [3] https://www.nature.com/news/microbiology-microbiome-science-needs-a-healthy-dose-of-scepticism-1.15730 https://www.nature.com/news/microbiology-microbiome-science-... [4] https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/hyping-the-microbiome-may-have-unpleasant-side-effects-1.3839334?mode=amp https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/hyping-the-microbiom...

146 points by ohjeez 7y ago

> The team speculated that the microbiome might produce certain substances in abundance, with some molecules making their way into the brain. I thought this was already well established with sodium butyrate. Eating hi maize resistant starch is a guaranteed way to give me super vivid, movie like dreams.

rolltiide 7y ago
I get extremely vivid, coherent, controllable dreams after being drunk despite the accepted science saying drinking/alcohol inhibits dreams of the sleep state necessary I’ve met a few other people that said the same thing
- arkades 7y ago
  Inhibits its patterned formation and continuation; doesn’t inhibit it from forming at all.
  - rolltiide 7y ago
    I'd be open to that but a lot of literature on the internet basically says something to the effect of it prevents dreaming
    - arkades 7y ago
      I’m not sure what literature on the Internet says, but its not what I learned in my sleep medicine rotation. shrug
- loceng 7y ago
  Watch this Joe Rogan interview with Matthew Walker - a sleep expert - for answer that doesn't counter science on alcohol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig
- grawprog 7y ago
  I get these if I stop smoking weed. Couldn't smoke during a school trip to the States years ago, two of the other people I shared a room with also smoked regularly, all three of us had fucked up vivid dreams for the entire week. I still remember the one on the first night all these years later. I remember vividly watching myself disintegrate while a nuke went off nearby while I was working on something at school. My dad's also said nicotine patches do the same thing while you're on them.
  - loceng 7y ago
    Joe Rogan interview with Matthew Walker - a sleep expert - where they talk about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig
  - DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
    Based only on what you wrote, I see two possible factors: taking a break from weed, or being on a school trip to the U.S.
- dws 7y ago
  I get weird, vivid dreams after drinking some wines. After a lot of experimentation, I narrowed it down to Lodi Zinfandels, which raises an interesting puzzle: Is it something in the soil, or are the local winemakers in some sort of competition to hotrod their wines?
- 121789 7y ago
  I’ve always heard that it inhibits REM (dream) sleep, but as it wears off, your body tries to make up for the lost dream sleep and you get the flood of crazy dreams right before you wake up.
  - rolltiide 7y ago
    Interesting I hadn’t heard the follow on part
bryanrasmussen 7y ago
What do you mean by movie like? I periodically have dreams in which I do not show up with characters, sometimes voice over narrative, and plots - is this what you mean. An ex-girlfriend of mine called them epic dreams.

krishsai 7y ago

Nice read!

yellow_lead 7y ago

> The researchers performed classical behavioral training on mice, some of which had been given antibiotics to dramatically diminish their microbiomes and some of which had been raised in isolation so that they had no microbiome at all. As someone who is currently on antibiotics, I wonder what effect different antibiotics have on human brains. It would probably not be too hard to setup a similar study, antibiotics are currently thought to be mostly harmless AFAIK.

johnsimer 7y ago
FWIW the gut is often referred to as the "second brain", and the microbiome wrecks havoc on the gut
- taneq 7y ago
  I apologise in advance for being super-pedantic here but it's "wreaks" (meaning "spreads/imposes") rather than "wrecks" (meaning "destroys").
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- drewcoo 7y ago
  Havok-wreaking or not, that microbiome is effectively part of the gut/brain. Thought experiment: What would Dawkins say about gut/brain memetics? How do those "ventremes" propagate?
sjg007 7y ago
Being on long term antibiotics is a big issue.

crmrc114 7y ago

I would argue this is not completely new. But still a fascinating look into how the cities of microorganisms on/in us influence our behavior. Toxoplasma gondii, an interesting topic if you want to read about how something in the gut can affect complex behavior in a mammal. Rodents are actually atracted to the smell of cat pee after being infected with T. Gondii. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110817175920.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110817175920.h... For the human perspective; https://www.jstor.org/stable/25223400?seq=1 https://www.jstor.org/stable/25223400?seq=1

yesenadam 7y ago
The "for the human perspective" link is to Parasites as causative agents of human affective disorders? The impact of anti-psychotic, mood-stabilizer and anti-parasite medication on Toxoplasma gondii's ability to alter host behaviour (Proceedings Biological Sciences, 2006) Download links: http://gen.lib.rus.ec/scimag/?q=Parasites%20as%20Causative%20Agents%20of%20Human%20Affective%20Disorders http://gen.lib.rus.ec/scimag/?q=Parasites%20as%20Causative%2...
phkahler 7y ago
Someone suggested to me that some STDs increase sex drive in humans, but I have not seen any research findings on that. It wouldn't surprise me.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

sebastianconcpt 7y ago

The researchers performed classical behavioral training on mice, some of which had been given antibiotics to dramatically diminish their microbiomes and some of which had been raised in isolation so that they had no microbiome at all. All the mice learned equally well to fear the sound of a tone that was followed by an electric shock. When the scientists discontinued the shocks, the ordinary mice gradually learned not to fear the sound. But in the mice with depleted or nonexistent microbiomes, the fear persisted — they remained more likely to freeze at the sound of the tone than the untreated mice did.

idclip 7y ago

How does one regenerate their micro biome?

mads 7y ago
For me, it helps to cut out sugar. I cannot say that I suddenly feel like a new person or anything after a while without sugar, but there is definitely a lift of my my baseline mental stamina, when it comes to handling everyday situations. Sleep also improves without sugar. That may be the cause also.
phkahler 7y ago
Fecal matter transplant.
cpncrunch 7y ago
Prebiotic and probiotic food.
- makiki 7y ago
  Very off topic, but.. did you explain how you recovered from CFS somewhere?
- keyle 7y ago
  There are no scientific evidence that probiotics work or don't work. It's a 50-50 unproven by science. The ones that prove it are sponsored and none disprove it either. My 50c as a long term IBS patient.
  - codyb 7y ago
    Anecdotally, post antibiotics this winter I had some yogurt and my gut started acting more normal within the day. Not data but definitely seemed to help me. Alternatively maybe I was already moving past the hump and would have felt better regardless but after antibiotics I’m not sure how I’d get back to a good baseline easier than yogurt or sauerkraut.

rbanffy 7y ago

It's interesting how much of our personalities relate to our fear responses. For example, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793824/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5793824/ notes that the size of the amygdala correlates with economic conservatism. I now wonder if changes in gut flora can predict political changes.

moh_maya 7y ago

So, interesting as the article is, there are two layers of caution one must exercise in interpreting the results. #1. The experiments were conducted in mouse models. Mouse models are remarkably useful, but are NOT human equivalents. It's dangerous to draw a straight line between human behaviour and behaviour in mice. [1] #2. Gut microbiome is the latest in the hype train. It may be important, but again, drawing such a straight (even speculative) line between gut microbiomes and behaviour is.. a reach [2,3,4]. Basically, I am, in general, very wary of any reports or articles that attempt to map results in mice to human behaviour and reports of the gut microbiomes driving autism / Alzheimer's / fear / what have you. This report combines both, so it gets extra red flags, IMO. Just my 2 cents.. not saying this isn't possible, but the bar for assuming this is true is very very high. And the results in the paper are a small first step in a very very long process required to substantiate this hypothesis. [1] https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/325255.php#1 https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/325255.php#1 [2] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-019-0283-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-019-0283-5 [3] https://www.nature.com/news/microbiology-microbiome-science-needs-a-healthy-dose-of-scepticism-1.15730 https://www.nature.com/news/microbiology-microbiome-science-... [4] https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/hyping-the-microbiome-may-have-unpleasant-side-effects-1.3839334?mode=amp https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/hyping-the-microbiom...