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> The market has spoken. The market “demands” cheap, turnkey, easily replaceable programmers who don’t really know what they’re doing, and justifies this with

> The market has spoken. The market “demands” cheap, turnkey, easily replaceable programmers who don’t really know what they’re doing, and justifies this with “I made a website last weekend, programming is easy, you’re just pretending its hard to keep out competition”. Until software engineering is treated as actual professional engineering, time, money and resources will continue to be wasted frivolously.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
dpflan 7y ago
Is there movement towards professionalizing software engineering? What factors are for and what are against? I like the idea of professionalizing but also understand it can be constraining to the labor market, but could increase “quality” of products?
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Speaking for Portuguese market, it is not a movement, it already exists since about 30 years already. https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engenharia_Inform%C3%A1tica#Col%C3%A9gio_de_Engenharia_Inform%C3%A1tica_da_Ordem_dos_Engenheiros https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engenharia_Inform%C3%A1tica#Co... Quality of assurance of 5 year studies, with assessement of university study plans.
burlesona 7y ago
Having previously worked in a “professionalized” field (architecture) before a career change to software engineering - please no. Having a credentialing body that has to review and certify you just kills wages and innovation, and makes it take an outrageously long time to enter the field. But, more importantly, it will not prevent bad programmers from existing and shipping bad software. Further, software engineering most assuredly is treated as actual professional engineering in most of the industry. That there are many companies that don’t treat it that way just means there are a lot of poorly led or non-software companies out there, which is no different than any other field.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Informatics Engineering is a professionalized field in some countries. What happens in Portugal is that although most people tend not to do the admission exam, all universities that give engineering degrees (including in computing) need to be certified by the order, and signing legal contracts for projects as Engineer does require the exam approval.
dharmab 7y ago
Did you know that there was a PE exam for software engineering? It was discontinued because less than 100 people applied for it over the course of several years.
- ThrowawayR2 7y ago
  No one took the exam because it was effectively impossible. To become a PE, first the candidate has to pass one of the Fundamentals of Engineering exam to become an engineer-in-training. Except, whoops, there wasn't ever a software specific FE exam; the most relevant one is the EE/Comp. E. exam. Take a look at the list of topics: https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/FE-Ele-CBT-specs.pdf https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/FE-Ele-CBT-specs.pdf Most developers aren't going to pass that even with a CS degree. Secondly, you need 4-8 years of supervision by a licensed engineer. Again, whoops, there are barely any software developers with a PE license, so who would they get to supervise them? Only then do you get to take the PE exam for software engineering. Frankly, the situation was so absurd that one has to suspect that NSPE didn't want to certify software developers as PEs.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Country specific, others still have such exams in place.
sdegutis 7y ago
There is a growth process in any profession. Nobody starts out as an expert just like nobody starts out as an adult. Wages to such are not a waste, but money well spent on training. There are degrees of skill, and jobs to match each level. And at the end of the day, the best quality education comes through real life experience.
GhettoMaestro 7y ago
> Until software engineering is treated as actual professional engineering, time, money and resources will continue to be wasted frivolously. I know this one. It starts with people like you suggesting people can't use the title "Engineer" without hoop-jumping through some arbitrary shit. Piss off with your gate-keeping. The software industry is doing just fine without needing people like you to "save" it.
- commandlinefan 7y ago
  > your gate-keeping Yep, that's _exactly_ what the "I made a website last weekend, so programming isn't hard, programmers just pretend it's hard" types say.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Indeed, to use the title "Engineer" one has to earn it, by taking an university degree in Informatics Engineering and having the respective assemment.
  - Gibbon1 7y ago
    > Informatics Engineering Coding isn't and never will be Engineering.
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      If what one understands by coding is laying bricks and doing plumbing, surely.
      - Gibbon1 7y ago
        The vast majority of programmers don't rise to the professionalism of a plumber.
palerdot 7y ago
How does it matter? What 'unqualified programmers' (in your speak) say has no bearing on the outcome/quality of actual software that is being created elsewhere by the 'professionals', right? Unlike other professions, software is ambigously placed in between art and commerce. Perhaps, the only art form that drives commerce heavily compared to music/painting etc. Just like there are no certifying bodies for qualified painters/sculptors/musicians (even if they exist, they are not stopping actual artists creating and sharing stuff), creating a certifying body for software will not take anyone anywhere.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

dpflan 7y ago

Is there movement towards professionalizing software engineering? What factors are for and what are against? I like the idea of professionalizing but also understand it can be constraining to the labor market, but could increase “quality” of products?

pjmlp 7y ago
Speaking for Portuguese market, it is not a movement, it already exists since about 30 years already. https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engenharia_Inform%C3%A1tica#Col%C3%A9gio_de_Engenharia_Inform%C3%A1tica_da_Ordem_dos_Engenheiros https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engenharia_Inform%C3%A1tica#Co... Quality of assurance of 5 year studies, with assessement of university study plans.

burlesona 7y ago

Having previously worked in a “professionalized” field (architecture) before a career change to software engineering - please no. Having a credentialing body that has to review and certify you just kills wages and innovation, and makes it take an outrageously long time to enter the field. But, more importantly, it will not prevent bad programmers from existing and shipping bad software. Further, software engineering most assuredly is treated as actual professional engineering in most of the industry. That there are many companies that don’t treat it that way just means there are a lot of poorly led or non-software companies out there, which is no different than any other field.

pjmlp 7y ago
Informatics Engineering is a professionalized field in some countries. What happens in Portugal is that although most people tend not to do the admission exam, all universities that give engineering degrees (including in computing) need to be certified by the order, and signing legal contracts for projects as Engineer does require the exam approval.

dharmab 7y ago

Did you know that there was a PE exam for software engineering? It was discontinued because less than 100 people applied for it over the course of several years.

ThrowawayR2 7y ago
No one took the exam because it was effectively impossible. To become a PE, first the candidate has to pass one of the Fundamentals of Engineering exam to become an engineer-in-training. Except, whoops, there wasn't ever a software specific FE exam; the most relevant one is the EE/Comp. E. exam. Take a look at the list of topics: https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/FE-Ele-CBT-specs.pdf https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/FE-Ele-CBT-specs.pdf Most developers aren't going to pass that even with a CS degree. Secondly, you need 4-8 years of supervision by a licensed engineer. Again, whoops, there are barely any software developers with a PE license, so who would they get to supervise them? Only then do you get to take the PE exam for software engineering. Frankly, the situation was so absurd that one has to suspect that NSPE didn't want to certify software developers as PEs.
pjmlp 7y ago
Country specific, others still have such exams in place.

sdegutis 7y ago

There is a growth process in any profession. Nobody starts out as an expert just like nobody starts out as an adult. Wages to such are not a waste, but money well spent on training. There are degrees of skill, and jobs to match each level. And at the end of the day, the best quality education comes through real life experience.

GhettoMaestro 7y ago

> Until software engineering is treated as actual professional engineering, time, money and resources will continue to be wasted frivolously. I know this one. It starts with people like you suggesting people can't use the title "Engineer" without hoop-jumping through some arbitrary shit. Piss off with your gate-keeping. The software industry is doing just fine without needing people like you to "save" it.

commandlinefan 7y ago
> your gate-keeping Yep, that's _exactly_ what the "I made a website last weekend, so programming isn't hard, programmers just pretend it's hard" types say.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
pjmlp 7y ago
Indeed, to use the title "Engineer" one has to earn it, by taking an university degree in Informatics Engineering and having the respective assemment.
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  > Informatics Engineering Coding isn't and never will be Engineering.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    If what one understands by coding is laying bricks and doing plumbing, surely.
    - Gibbon1 7y ago
      The vast majority of programmers don't rise to the professionalism of a plumber.

palerdot 7y ago

How does it matter? What 'unqualified programmers' (in your speak) say has no bearing on the outcome/quality of actual software that is being created elsewhere by the 'professionals', right? Unlike other professions, software is ambigously placed in between art and commerce. Perhaps, the only art form that drives commerce heavily compared to music/painting etc. Just like there are no certifying bodies for qualified painters/sculptors/musicians (even if they exist, they are not stopping actual artists creating and sharing stuff), creating a certifying body for software will not take anyone anywhere.