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>the far right and far left are roughly equally wrong. I don't think you can reduce political arguments to who is "right" and who is "wrong". Politics and mora

by whyoh 7y ago

>the far right and far left are roughly equally wrong. I don't think you can reduce political arguments to who is "right" and who is "wrong". Politics and moral questions are not mathematical problems. We fundamentally don't all agree on what the final outcome (of a society, of life) should be. Maybe 99% of us can agree with something like "happiness" or "peace", but those are way too vague and the devil's in the details.

pjc50 7y ago
Eventually this ends up with a million people dead and everyone saying "well that was probably bad, maybe we should have tried to prevent that". Just because we cannot guarantee certainty or outcomes doesn't absolve us from the moral responsibility to try.
- whyoh 7y ago
  Ok, but this is not what I was getting at. When PG says that the left and right are equally "wrong", he's suggesting that they are both trying to arrive at THE solution, but just taking different paths. I don't think this is fundamentally true and if you view political struggle from this perspective you're going to miss the full picture.
  - noir-york 7y ago
    It is indeed true - the extreme left and right (along with the religious extremists of any religion) all believe that they have the One True Solution, and have historically been ready to murder millions who they believe stood in the way. So yes, both the extreme left and the extreme right are not only wrong, but morally repugnant. The whole point of classical political liberalism is of how to get multiple incompatible ideas of what is the good life (broadly understood) to coexist peacefully. Without it there is only tyranny or chaos.
- TuringTest 7y ago
  > Just because we cannot guarantee certainty or outcomes doesn't absolve us from the moral responsibility to try. I think the point is that different people will try different things, often opposing each other.
- youdontknowtho 7y ago
  That's a pretty big simplification of politics over the last century and a half. For example, let me grant you that Nazi Germany and the Soviets were equally bad for the sake of this question, would that mean that we and our allies were moderate? Do the proxy wars that we fought/are fighting all over the world factor into an ideological spectrum? The reason that I'm asking a question instead of just going all "what about-ism" is I really would like top understand why people think the way they do. Not trying to start an argument.
aidenn0 7y ago
1. Just because we don't agree on the answer doesn't mean that there is no correct answer. If there are no correct or incorrect policies then there is no need to vote. 2. There is strong agreement on lots of things: 95 percent disapprove of people using cell phones in movie theaters. (Pew Research Center’s American Trends Panel Poll, 2014) 97 percent believe there should be laws against texting while driving. (The New York Times/CBS News Poll, 2009) 96 percent have a positive impression of small business. (Gallup Poll, 2016) 95 percent believe employers should not be able to access the DNA of their employees without permission. (Time/CNN/Yankelovich Partners Poll, 1998) 95 percent support laws against money laundering involving terrorism. (Washington Post Poll, 2001) 95 percent think doctors should be licensed. (Private Initiatives & Public Values, 1981) 95 percent would support going to war if the United States were invaded. (Harris Survey, 1971) 96 percent oppose legalizing crystal meth. (CNN/ORC International Poll, 2014) 95 percent are satisfied with their friends. (Associated Press/Media General Poll, 1984) 95 percent say that “if a pill were available that made you twice as good looking as you are now, but only half as smart,” they would not take it. (Men’s Health Work Survey, 2000) 98 percent believe adults should watch swimmers rather than reading or talking on the phone. (American Red Cross Water Safety Poll, 2013) 99 percent think it’s wrong for employees to steal expensive equipment from their workplace. (NBC News Poll, 1995) 95 percent think it’s wrong to pay someone to do a term paper for you. (NBC News Poll, 1995) 98 percent would like to see a decline in hunger in the world. (Harris Survey, 1983) 97 percent would like to see a decline in terrorism and violence. (Harris Survey, 1983) 98% would like to see an end to high unemployment. (Harris Survey, 1982) 95 percent would like to see an end to all wars. (Harris Survey, 1981) 95 percent would like to see a decline in prejudice. (Harris Survey, 1977) 95 percent don’t believe Magic 8 Balls can predict the future. (Shell Poll, 1998) 96 percent think the Olympics are a great sports competition. (Atlanta Journal-Constitution Poll, 1996) (source How To Monroe 2019, by way of https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-to-win-an-election/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-to-win-an-election/)
- elfexec 7y ago
  > If there are no correct or incorrect policies then there is no need to vote. If there were correct or incorrect policies, there wouldn't be any need to vote. If politics was a science or a math, we wouldn't need to vote. We be able to test or prove the correct answer. The reason we vote is precisely because there is no correct answer in politics. There is a why science and math doesn't work by consensus or a vote.

by whyoh 7y ago

pjc50 7y ago

Eventually this ends up with a million people dead and everyone saying "well that was probably bad, maybe we should have tried to prevent that". Just because we cannot guarantee certainty or outcomes doesn't absolve us from the moral responsibility to try.

whyoh 7y ago
Ok, but this is not what I was getting at. When PG says that the left and right are equally "wrong", he's suggesting that they are both trying to arrive at THE solution, but just taking different paths. I don't think this is fundamentally true and if you view political struggle from this perspective you're going to miss the full picture.
- noir-york 7y ago
  It is indeed true - the extreme left and right (along with the religious extremists of any religion) all believe that they have the One True Solution, and have historically been ready to murder millions who they believe stood in the way. So yes, both the extreme left and the extreme right are not only wrong, but morally repugnant. The whole point of classical political liberalism is of how to get multiple incompatible ideas of what is the good life (broadly understood) to coexist peacefully. Without it there is only tyranny or chaos.
TuringTest 7y ago
> Just because we cannot guarantee certainty or outcomes doesn't absolve us from the moral responsibility to try. I think the point is that different people will try different things, often opposing each other.
youdontknowtho 7y ago
That's a pretty big simplification of politics over the last century and a half. For example, let me grant you that Nazi Germany and the Soviets were equally bad for the sake of this question, would that mean that we and our allies were moderate? Do the proxy wars that we fought/are fighting all over the world factor into an ideological spectrum? The reason that I'm asking a question instead of just going all "what about-ism" is I really would like top understand why people think the way they do. Not trying to start an argument.

aidenn0 7y ago

1. Just because we don't agree on the answer doesn't mean that there is no correct answer. If there are no correct or incorrect policies then there is no need to vote. 2. There is strong agreement on lots of things: 95 percent disapprove of people using cell phones in movie theaters. (Pew Research Center’s American Trends Panel Poll, 2014) 97 percent believe there should be laws against texting while driving. (The New York Times/CBS News Poll, 2009) 96 percent have a positive impression of small business. (Gallup Poll, 2016) 95 percent believe employers should not be able to access the DNA of their employees without permission. (Time/CNN/Yankelovich Partners Poll, 1998) 95 percent support laws against money laundering involving terrorism. (Washington Post Poll, 2001) 95 percent think doctors should be licensed. (Private Initiatives & Public Values, 1981) 95 percent would support going to war if the United States were invaded. (Harris Survey, 1971) 96 percent oppose legalizing crystal meth. (CNN/ORC International Poll, 2014) 95 percent are satisfied with their friends. (Associated Press/Media General Poll, 1984) 95 percent say that “if a pill were available that made you twice as good looking as you are now, but only half as smart,” they would not take it. (Men’s Health Work Survey, 2000) 98 percent believe adults should watch swimmers rather than reading or talking on the phone. (American Red Cross Water Safety Poll, 2013) 99 percent think it’s wrong for employees to steal expensive equipment from their workplace. (NBC News Poll, 1995) 95 percent think it’s wrong to pay someone to do a term paper for you. (NBC News Poll, 1995) 98 percent would like to see a decline in hunger in the world. (Harris Survey, 1983) 97 percent would like to see a decline in terrorism and violence. (Harris Survey, 1983) 98% would like to see an end to high unemployment. (Harris Survey, 1982) 95 percent would like to see an end to all wars. (Harris Survey, 1981) 95 percent would like to see a decline in prejudice. (Harris Survey, 1977) 95 percent don’t believe Magic 8 Balls can predict the future. (Shell Poll, 1998) 96 percent think the Olympics are a great sports competition. (Atlanta Journal-Constitution Poll, 1996) (source How To Monroe 2019, by way of https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-to-win-an-election/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-to-win-an-election/)

elfexec 7y ago
> If there are no correct or incorrect policies then there is no need to vote. If there were correct or incorrect policies, there wouldn't be any need to vote. If politics was a science or a math, we wouldn't need to vote. We be able to test or prove the correct answer. The reason we vote is precisely because there is no correct answer in politics. There is a why science and math doesn't work by consensus or a vote.