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Virtually no one can write secure C code. This is different than “other languages allow some people to write insecure code occasionally”.

jacquesm 7y ago
You're missing the point: writing secure code is categorically impossible, no matter what the language. That's very much different from 'other languages allow some people to write insecure code occasionally'. Every piece of code, every system ever built and every piece of hardware ever designed had bugs in it and if that item was supposed to be secure over time it will turn out that it wasn't. So the best you can hope for is that an item is obsoleted before you (or an adversary) detects its flaws and you're going to be fighting a rearguard action. The whole idea that many eyes or 'safe' languages or some other magic bullet are going to solve this is so far off-base that it makes productive discussion impossible because everybody starts to focus on the particular tool at hand whereas the real problem is an instance of of the class 'architecture', not of the class 'tool'.
- weberc2 7y ago
  I don’t think I’m the one missing the point. You seem to be rebutting points I didn’t make, like other languages (or magic bullets) afford a bug count of zero. You also seem to be ignoring my point, which is that C is in a different ballpark than other languages in its difficulty of implementing correct software.
  - tekknik 7y ago
    you did say that other languages are more secure, and the parent post here is asserting the entire platform is insecure therefor no languages are secure, which is true. however i disagree with both of you that writing safe C is hard. most of the problems i see relate to incorrect pointer usage or memory management. use stack allocated containers from libs very well tested and pass references. this removes entire classes of bugs from popping up. one thing you can’t do with C is be lazy.
    - UncleMeat 7y ago
      I absolutely guarantee that if you throw AFL at any modestly complex C program that you have written that it will find bugs. Guarantee. This isn't about laziness.
      - tekknik 7y ago
        safe and bug free are different things. nobody writes big free code but writing safe code isn’t as hard. also i’m not entirely sure how a program proves lack of laziness, if anything it proves laziness

jacquesm 7y ago

You're missing the point: writing secure code is categorically impossible, no matter what the language. That's very much different from 'other languages allow some people to write insecure code occasionally'. Every piece of code, every system ever built and every piece of hardware ever designed had bugs in it and if that item was supposed to be secure over time it will turn out that it wasn't. So the best you can hope for is that an item is obsoleted before you (or an adversary) detects its flaws and you're going to be fighting a rearguard action. The whole idea that many eyes or 'safe' languages or some other magic bullet are going to solve this is so far off-base that it makes productive discussion impossible because everybody starts to focus on the particular tool at hand whereas the real problem is an instance of of the class 'architecture', not of the class 'tool'.

weberc2 7y ago
I don’t think I’m the one missing the point. You seem to be rebutting points I didn’t make, like other languages (or magic bullets) afford a bug count of zero. You also seem to be ignoring my point, which is that C is in a different ballpark than other languages in its difficulty of implementing correct software.
- tekknik 7y ago
  you did say that other languages are more secure, and the parent post here is asserting the entire platform is insecure therefor no languages are secure, which is true. however i disagree with both of you that writing safe C is hard. most of the problems i see relate to incorrect pointer usage or memory management. use stack allocated containers from libs very well tested and pass references. this removes entire classes of bugs from popping up. one thing you can’t do with C is be lazy.
  - UncleMeat 7y ago
    I absolutely guarantee that if you throw AFL at any modestly complex C program that you have written that it will find bugs. Guarantee. This isn't about laziness.
    - tekknik 7y ago
      safe and bug free are different things. nobody writes big free code but writing safe code isn’t as hard. also i’m not entirely sure how a program proves lack of laziness, if anything it proves laziness