6 ms·

Turkey's block on Wikipedia violates rights, court rules

133 points by thewarpaint 7y ago

modeless 7y ago
Edit: Sorry, I misread a quote from the article.
- caymanjim 7y ago
  Nothing in the article implies that the page will be blocked at all.
duxup 7y ago
From the outside this seems strange in light of the current autocratic nature of the government in Turkey where we hear stories of wholesale purges from civil service jobs, universities and etc.
- duhast 7y ago
  Idea of an independent civil service (or justice system) is being threaten more generally recently. Countries that come to mind: US, Hungry, Poland, Turkey and recently also UK (Mr. Cummings, chief advisor to PM stating that UK civil service should be entirely abolished).
  - ppod 7y ago
    >chief advisor to PM stating that UK civil service should be entirely abolished Citation? The original article advocates reform, and possibly abolishing permanent secretaries, but nothing like entirely abolishing the civil service https://dominiccummings.com/2014/10/30/the-hollow-men-ii-some-reflections-on-westminster-and-whitehall-dysfunction/ https://dominiccummings.com/2014/10/30/the-hollow-men-ii-som...
    - AmericanChopper 7y ago
      I’m also very confused about what exactly is supposed to be independent about it. The job of the civil service is to execute government policy.
      - ppod 7y ago
        When people say that they mean that it is independent from party politics, and distinct from the government, i.e. yes it executes government policy but it is separate from the government and the personnel don't change after elections.
      - duxup 7y ago
        I think more specifically civil service is there to act on the laws passed and do so with regards to the law or policy....not necessarily the whims of a given politician...or say only service his supporters.
        AmericanChopper 7y ago
        Policy and legislation are not the same thing. Policy is how cabinet decides to run its ministerial portfolios. If they want to implement a policy that requires large changes, this will often require new legislation, but the two things are quite seperate. The job of the civil service is to implement government policy, which may include the whims of a particular politician. Civil servants are supposed to be independent in the sense that they will faithfully implement the policy of any government, regardless of their own political opinions on said policy. They do not operate independent of government policy. That is how you ensure thousands of unelected government officials uphold the values of a democratic society.
      - duhast 7y ago
        Independent civil service exists to provide: 1) continuity of government function in presence of political instability, elections etc. 2) higher level of comptency across government employees ( career bureaucrats) Essentially you don't want the government to be staffed with incompetent friends and affiliates who either leave or get kicked out after lost election leading to the vacancies, interrupted projects etc. More: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_service#Civil_service_independence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_service#Civil_service_in...
- rolleiflex 7y ago
  Turkey is a weird place. (Context: Turkish person living in the US). It is autocratic in a very specific way — it elects its autocrats. As in, Erdogan legitimately wins his elections, and he is as popular as the votes indicate, which is around 51% - an unfortunate fact for those of us at the remaining 49%. For comparison, it’s not like Russia at all - Erdogan is very vulnerable to just getting elected out and while he does have more leeway in doing what he wants, he ultimately has to do what the population wants him to do or risk losing the next election. For the things that Turkish population puts less immediate value on is the places where he gets the most leeway, and rule of law in the western sense was until recently one of them. As of now though, he is bleeding out votes because of various issues, like this one, which I would speculate as the everyday person in Turkey sort of discovering habeas corpus is actually kind of important. I’ve always thought it’s a cultural remnant of the sultans.
  - duxup 7y ago
    I have no doubt Erdogan has won elections. I do wonder how free and legitimate they are when he gets to expel those who oppose him. And of course the big question is would he allow a result where an election would mean he is removed from power.
    - rolleiflex 7y ago
      Erdogan lost elections in the recent past and he had to give up power in Istanbul. The mayor of Istanbul is basically the Vice President of Turkey in terms of broadcasting power and actual ability to do things on the ground due to the sheer size of Istanbul, and he’s been a major thorn on his side since. I don’t think (I hope) when the time comes, he refuses to leave, that would be a much, much different problem than the ones facing Turkey right now. Re: legitimacy, I’ve been on the losing side of those elections for the last two decades by now. Unfortunately they’re pretty legitimate, he really does have a majority and his majority does not depend on expelling people. Had it been that way, Turkey would make a lot more sense. The core problem with Turkey lie not with legitimacy of elections, or with the consent of the governed, but within the much more subtle distinction between ‘ruling’ and ‘governing’ what is ultimately a very pluralistic society with a vast range of ethnic and sociocultural backgrounds. Doing legitimate elections is one thing, not assuming they mean ultimate power to squash out your opposition like bugs on a windshield is quite another. In terms of social malaise, Turkey is more similar to Hungary or Poland, rather than Russia. Again, it’s a weird country, it doesn’t make sense even to its inhabitants so I try to avoid commenting on it from afar.
- sharno 7y ago
  I got my MS degree from Turkey. These days they decided to close my university because of some political conflict between Erdogan and a guy who got separated from his party (Ahmet Davutoglu), turns out this guy owned the university. I’m not Turkish and at least not in Turkey right now, but I’m sure such a thing ruined lots of people’s lives and certainly will make my life harder in certain situations someone needs to validate my degree
  - duxup 7y ago
    I think the bigger result is a sort of brain drain. Early on there were stories of folks purged or threatened and doctors and other professionals simply decided it was time to leave before things got ugly.... I don't know if they're coming back.
mirimir 7y ago
> “One of the sad issues is this: We expressed on every platform since the first day that the process of blocking access to the whole of Wikipedia was unlawful,” Gonenc Gurkaynak, a lawyer representing Wikimedia, wrote on Twitter. Huh? So does this imply that blocking access to specific Wikipedia articles would be lawful? That would not be such a reassuring concession by someone representing Wikimedia.
- raicem 7y ago
  Yeah, it sounds kinda funny. Turkey used to block Twitter and YouTube, just because of a tweet or a video. But because it causes such a problem for the government, they passed a bill allowing just to block some URLs. Not the whole website. So now, many of the news websites have specific pages that are blocked. I believe he refers to this.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    Thanks. So it is OK if it's specific. I guess that's not so unusual, really. Not that it doesn't suck.
- bonzini 7y ago
  Yes, there are many countries in which specific articles are blocked, for example when the truthfulness of their contents is challenged in court. Though in that case it's a judge that decides that, not the government.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    I get that they're not executive or legislative. But they are for sure government.
- tehlike 7y ago
  Funny you should say that, because a lot of US companies eventually implement filters that follow local censorship.
  - 7y ago
shmerl 7y ago
Erdogan will probably try to fix it by setting up more agreeable judges or by changing the constitution itself, like Putin is planning to do.
- duxup 7y ago
  >like Putin is planning to do My understanding is the Russian courts have for a LONG time been weak and simply deferred to Putin and Co. The Russian courts don't even come up as a question when most Russian news is discussed.
  - shmerl 7y ago
    Russian courts are simply rubberstamping whatever they are told to do indeed. They are just an empty facade. In this since Turkey is in a better situation, so far. But Erdogan is gradually trying to take all that way. He already changed the system from parliamentary to a presidential one. Why would you expect him to stop there? He'll try to get to the courts too.
nurettin 7y ago
I truly resent and despise the infantile attempts at self-preservation through censorship. I hope this years-long embarrassment resolves itself.
- nurettin 7y ago
  Aaaand the article is gone from frontpage (and second page, and third page, and fourth page.)
lolc 7y ago
Good! It is hard to watch all the damage being dealt to institutions in Turkey with these "terrorist" laws. So I'm always happy to note remnants of a functioning civil society. It means that when the antidemocratic AKP is voted out, the country doesn't start from zero.

133 points by thewarpaint 7y ago

modeless 7y ago

Edit: Sorry, I misread a quote from the article.

caymanjim 7y ago
Nothing in the article implies that the page will be blocked at all.

duxup 7y ago

From the outside this seems strange in light of the current autocratic nature of the government in Turkey where we hear stories of wholesale purges from civil service jobs, universities and etc.

duhast 7y ago
Idea of an independent civil service (or justice system) is being threaten more generally recently. Countries that come to mind: US, Hungry, Poland, Turkey and recently also UK (Mr. Cummings, chief advisor to PM stating that UK civil service should be entirely abolished).
- ppod 7y ago
  >chief advisor to PM stating that UK civil service should be entirely abolished Citation? The original article advocates reform, and possibly abolishing permanent secretaries, but nothing like entirely abolishing the civil service https://dominiccummings.com/2014/10/30/the-hollow-men-ii-some-reflections-on-westminster-and-whitehall-dysfunction/ https://dominiccummings.com/2014/10/30/the-hollow-men-ii-som...
  - AmericanChopper 7y ago
    I’m also very confused about what exactly is supposed to be independent about it. The job of the civil service is to execute government policy.
    - ppod 7y ago
      When people say that they mean that it is independent from party politics, and distinct from the government, i.e. yes it executes government policy but it is separate from the government and the personnel don't change after elections.
    - duxup 7y ago
      I think more specifically civil service is there to act on the laws passed and do so with regards to the law or policy....not necessarily the whims of a given politician...or say only service his supporters.
      - AmericanChopper 7y ago
        Policy and legislation are not the same thing. Policy is how cabinet decides to run its ministerial portfolios. If they want to implement a policy that requires large changes, this will often require new legislation, but the two things are quite seperate. The job of the civil service is to implement government policy, which may include the whims of a particular politician. Civil servants are supposed to be independent in the sense that they will faithfully implement the policy of any government, regardless of their own political opinions on said policy. They do not operate independent of government policy. That is how you ensure thousands of unelected government officials uphold the values of a democratic society.
    - duhast 7y ago
      Independent civil service exists to provide: 1) continuity of government function in presence of political instability, elections etc. 2) higher level of comptency across government employees ( career bureaucrats) Essentially you don't want the government to be staffed with incompetent friends and affiliates who either leave or get kicked out after lost election leading to the vacancies, interrupted projects etc. More: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_service#Civil_service_independence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_service#Civil_service_in...
rolleiflex 7y ago
Turkey is a weird place. (Context: Turkish person living in the US). It is autocratic in a very specific way — it elects its autocrats. As in, Erdogan legitimately wins his elections, and he is as popular as the votes indicate, which is around 51% - an unfortunate fact for those of us at the remaining 49%. For comparison, it’s not like Russia at all - Erdogan is very vulnerable to just getting elected out and while he does have more leeway in doing what he wants, he ultimately has to do what the population wants him to do or risk losing the next election. For the things that Turkish population puts less immediate value on is the places where he gets the most leeway, and rule of law in the western sense was until recently one of them. As of now though, he is bleeding out votes because of various issues, like this one, which I would speculate as the everyday person in Turkey sort of discovering habeas corpus is actually kind of important. I’ve always thought it’s a cultural remnant of the sultans.
- duxup 7y ago
  I have no doubt Erdogan has won elections. I do wonder how free and legitimate they are when he gets to expel those who oppose him. And of course the big question is would he allow a result where an election would mean he is removed from power.
  - rolleiflex 7y ago
    Erdogan lost elections in the recent past and he had to give up power in Istanbul. The mayor of Istanbul is basically the Vice President of Turkey in terms of broadcasting power and actual ability to do things on the ground due to the sheer size of Istanbul, and he’s been a major thorn on his side since. I don’t think (I hope) when the time comes, he refuses to leave, that would be a much, much different problem than the ones facing Turkey right now. Re: legitimacy, I’ve been on the losing side of those elections for the last two decades by now. Unfortunately they’re pretty legitimate, he really does have a majority and his majority does not depend on expelling people. Had it been that way, Turkey would make a lot more sense. The core problem with Turkey lie not with legitimacy of elections, or with the consent of the governed, but within the much more subtle distinction between ‘ruling’ and ‘governing’ what is ultimately a very pluralistic society with a vast range of ethnic and sociocultural backgrounds. Doing legitimate elections is one thing, not assuming they mean ultimate power to squash out your opposition like bugs on a windshield is quite another. In terms of social malaise, Turkey is more similar to Hungary or Poland, rather than Russia. Again, it’s a weird country, it doesn’t make sense even to its inhabitants so I try to avoid commenting on it from afar.
sharno 7y ago
I got my MS degree from Turkey. These days they decided to close my university because of some political conflict between Erdogan and a guy who got separated from his party (Ahmet Davutoglu), turns out this guy owned the university. I’m not Turkish and at least not in Turkey right now, but I’m sure such a thing ruined lots of people’s lives and certainly will make my life harder in certain situations someone needs to validate my degree
- duxup 7y ago
  I think the bigger result is a sort of brain drain. Early on there were stories of folks purged or threatened and doctors and other professionals simply decided it was time to leave before things got ugly.... I don't know if they're coming back.

mirimir 7y ago

> “One of the sad issues is this: We expressed on every platform since the first day that the process of blocking access to the whole of Wikipedia was unlawful,” Gonenc Gurkaynak, a lawyer representing Wikimedia, wrote on Twitter. Huh? So does this imply that blocking access to specific Wikipedia articles would be lawful? That would not be such a reassuring concession by someone representing Wikimedia.

raicem 7y ago
Yeah, it sounds kinda funny. Turkey used to block Twitter and YouTube, just because of a tweet or a video. But because it causes such a problem for the government, they passed a bill allowing just to block some URLs. Not the whole website. So now, many of the news websites have specific pages that are blocked. I believe he refers to this.
- mirimir 7y ago
  Thanks. So it is OK if it's specific. I guess that's not so unusual, really. Not that it doesn't suck.
bonzini 7y ago
Yes, there are many countries in which specific articles are blocked, for example when the truthfulness of their contents is challenged in court. Though in that case it's a judge that decides that, not the government.
- mirimir 7y ago
  I get that they're not executive or legislative. But they are for sure government.
tehlike 7y ago
Funny you should say that, because a lot of US companies eventually implement filters that follow local censorship.
- 7y ago

shmerl 7y ago

Erdogan will probably try to fix it by setting up more agreeable judges or by changing the constitution itself, like Putin is planning to do.

duxup 7y ago
>like Putin is planning to do My understanding is the Russian courts have for a LONG time been weak and simply deferred to Putin and Co. The Russian courts don't even come up as a question when most Russian news is discussed.
- shmerl 7y ago
  Russian courts are simply rubberstamping whatever they are told to do indeed. They are just an empty facade. In this since Turkey is in a better situation, so far. But Erdogan is gradually trying to take all that way. He already changed the system from parliamentary to a presidential one. Why would you expect him to stop there? He'll try to get to the courts too.

nurettin 7y ago

I truly resent and despise the infantile attempts at self-preservation through censorship. I hope this years-long embarrassment resolves itself.

nurettin 7y ago
Aaaand the article is gone from frontpage (and second page, and third page, and fourth page.)

lolc 7y ago

Good! It is hard to watch all the damage being dealt to institutions in Turkey with these "terrorist" laws. So I'm always happy to note remnants of a functioning civil society. It means that when the antidemocratic AKP is voted out, the country doesn't start from zero.