3 ms·

I am certain we are them. Emotions and feelings are entirely an animal trait in us. Whether they are us is a more complicated question. What are their language

I am certain we are them. Emotions and feelings are entirely an animal trait in us. Whether they are us is a more complicated question. What are their language and reasoning abilities? Apparently no animals ask questions, even after being “asked”. Seems that questioning and reasoning is what makes us human (sapient). I’m pointing this out because most people would say that it’s the emotions and feelings that distinguish us. That’s not the case.

simonh 7y ago
I think it’s clear mammals and certainly primates exhibit emotional behaviour, in which case it’s clear our common ancestors must have exhibited such behaviour. The question is, is our experience of those emotions similar? I see no reason to doubt it. The question boils down to whether animals have a sense of self and experience a ‘first person’ view of the world. Experimental evidence suggests that several species, including primates do have a sense of self and there’s so evidence they also have a theory of mind [0]. It has been argued that a first person experience of the world is not required for advanced reasoning, language, etc in discussions of AI. That may be the case. In which case our first person experience may be independent of and pre-date our advanced reasoning skills. Even if it is required for reasoning ability that’s also consistent with us having it first. I just don’t see any reason to see them as necessary for each other either way. Finally, if the experience of the world and the basis of our responses to stimulus did undergo such a dramatic shift at some point, that seems like an extremely dangerous transition. An awful lot could go wrong with that, and in fact everything about such a shift would have to go extraordinarily well or the result would be catastrophic failure. All evolutionary transitions have to progress through stages that are each viable at every step. Huge leaps don’t happen, because the odds of success are impossibly low. It seems more likely to me that our emotional responses are similar to closely related species, because the neurological basis for them, and mental experience of them are also similar. Otherwise we need to figure out why a radically different mental experience evolved, and why, and how come it leads to no appreciable difference in emotional behaviour. [0] https://www.discoverwildlife.com/news/theory-of-mind-demonstrated-great-apes/ https://www.discoverwildlife.com/news/theory-of-mind-demonst...
ivanhoe 7y ago
> What are their language and reasoning abilities? Apparently no animals ask questions, even after being “asked”. I might misunderstood your statement here, but e.g. dogs can understand a lot of things people say, not just purely pre-learned "commands" but the context of what is going on. They also ask (simple) questions all the time, but they use their body language for that. Most of the time it's some form of "what's going on", but pretty much every dog lover knows the specific "are you taking me with you" pose & look when you dress up to go out, and they're unsure if you'll take them too. Now, obviously it's nothing nearly as complex as "Why do we exists" which are uniquely human type of questions to ask, but IMHO very comparable to the level of my kid when he was 1-2 years old.

simonh 7y ago

I think it’s clear mammals and certainly primates exhibit emotional behaviour, in which case it’s clear our common ancestors must have exhibited such behaviour. The question is, is our experience of those emotions similar? I see no reason to doubt it. The question boils down to whether animals have a sense of self and experience a ‘first person’ view of the world. Experimental evidence suggests that several species, including primates do have a sense of self and there’s so evidence they also have a theory of mind [0]. It has been argued that a first person experience of the world is not required for advanced reasoning, language, etc in discussions of AI. That may be the case. In which case our first person experience may be independent of and pre-date our advanced reasoning skills. Even if it is required for reasoning ability that’s also consistent with us having it first. I just don’t see any reason to see them as necessary for each other either way. Finally, if the experience of the world and the basis of our responses to stimulus did undergo such a dramatic shift at some point, that seems like an extremely dangerous transition. An awful lot could go wrong with that, and in fact everything about such a shift would have to go extraordinarily well or the result would be catastrophic failure. All evolutionary transitions have to progress through stages that are each viable at every step. Huge leaps don’t happen, because the odds of success are impossibly low. It seems more likely to me that our emotional responses are similar to closely related species, because the neurological basis for them, and mental experience of them are also similar. Otherwise we need to figure out why a radically different mental experience evolved, and why, and how come it leads to no appreciable difference in emotional behaviour. [0] https://www.discoverwildlife.com/news/theory-of-mind-demonstrated-great-apes/ https://www.discoverwildlife.com/news/theory-of-mind-demonst...

ivanhoe 7y ago

> What are their language and reasoning abilities? Apparently no animals ask questions, even after being “asked”. I might misunderstood your statement here, but e.g. dogs can understand a lot of things people say, not just purely pre-learned "commands" but the context of what is going on. They also ask (simple) questions all the time, but they use their body language for that. Most of the time it's some form of "what's going on", but pretty much every dog lover knows the specific "are you taking me with you" pose & look when you dress up to go out, and they're unsure if you'll take them too. Now, obviously it's nothing nearly as complex as "Why do we exists" which are uniquely human type of questions to ask, but IMHO very comparable to the level of my kid when he was 1-2 years old.