3 ms·

This is essentially what social democracies do, like in the Nordic countries, and it seems to work great at achieving good results in a variety of societal dime

This is essentially what social democracies do, like in the Nordic countries, and it seems to work great at achieving good results in a variety of societal dimensions. The counter-arguments from fiscal conservatives generally take one of two tacks: either a plainly disingenuous one where they argue that this is somehow only possible in those specific countries (e.g. due to being small and/or relatively homogeneous), or an ideological one where they argue that even if this is beneficial to the society as a whole, they're against it because taxing the winners more is fundamentally wrong, taxation is theft etc. Well, the Nordic countries don't do the UBI part, but taxing the winners heavily and funding policies that are effectively redistributionist because they treat everyone more or less equally (like public transportation or universal healthcare), yeah they do that for sure.

xyzzyz 7y ago
No, the Nordic countries don't really tax the winners more. The marginal tax rates for top earners there are about the same as in the US. The real difference is that they, along with most other European welfare states, tax the middle class much more than the US does. > either a plainly disingenuous one where they argue that this is somehow only possible in those specific countries (e.g. due to being small and/or relatively homogeneous) No, of course it is possible in other countries too. For example, people of Swedish ancestry in the US not only do better than average American, but in fact do much better than Swedes in Sweden.
- TulliusCicero 7y ago
  Hmm, is that true? > So on average, those in the highest earnings bracket will pay 56 percent of their taxable income to the taxman (31 percent in local income tax plus 25 percent in national income tax), but a top earner living in Dorotea would pay 60.15 percent. https://www.thelocal.se/20180111/does-swedens-tax-system-really-screw-the-rich https://www.thelocal.se/20180111/does-swedens-tax-system-rea... That sounds higher than the US. Maybe not that much higher than particularly high tax places like NYC, but compared to the US on average, yeah that sounds high. That taxes there are also higher on the middle class, yeah I don't dispute that.
  - xyzzyz 7y ago
    Marginal tax rate in places with most top earners, like California and New York, is around 50%, if you add together both federal and state taxes.
    - TulliusCicero 7y ago
      Just used a tax calculator, in Stockholm gross of 500k USD annually was net 210k USD: https://se.neuvoo.com/tax-calculator/?iam=&uet_calculate=calculate&salary=4671068&from=year&region=STOCKHOLM https://se.neuvoo.com/tax-calculator/?iam=&uet_calculate=cal... In NYC it'd be net 284k: https://smartasset.com/taxes/new-york-tax-calculator#xyAZi4NK9M https://smartasset.com/taxes/new-york-tax-calculator#xyAZi4N... So yeah, it's much higher in Sweden. The effective tax rates are 58% vs 43%.

xyzzyz 7y ago

No, the Nordic countries don't really tax the winners more. The marginal tax rates for top earners there are about the same as in the US. The real difference is that they, along with most other European welfare states, tax the middle class much more than the US does. > either a plainly disingenuous one where they argue that this is somehow only possible in those specific countries (e.g. due to being small and/or relatively homogeneous) No, of course it is possible in other countries too. For example, people of Swedish ancestry in the US not only do better than average American, but in fact do much better than Swedes in Sweden.

TulliusCicero 7y ago
Hmm, is that true? > So on average, those in the highest earnings bracket will pay 56 percent of their taxable income to the taxman (31 percent in local income tax plus 25 percent in national income tax), but a top earner living in Dorotea would pay 60.15 percent. https://www.thelocal.se/20180111/does-swedens-tax-system-really-screw-the-rich https://www.thelocal.se/20180111/does-swedens-tax-system-rea... That sounds higher than the US. Maybe not that much higher than particularly high tax places like NYC, but compared to the US on average, yeah that sounds high. That taxes there are also higher on the middle class, yeah I don't dispute that.
- xyzzyz 7y ago
  Marginal tax rate in places with most top earners, like California and New York, is around 50%, if you add together both federal and state taxes.
  - TulliusCicero 7y ago
    Just used a tax calculator, in Stockholm gross of 500k USD annually was net 210k USD: https://se.neuvoo.com/tax-calculator/?iam=&uet_calculate=calculate&salary=4671068&from=year&region=STOCKHOLM https://se.neuvoo.com/tax-calculator/?iam=&uet_calculate=cal... In NYC it'd be net 284k: https://smartasset.com/taxes/new-york-tax-calculator#xyAZi4NK9M https://smartasset.com/taxes/new-york-tax-calculator#xyAZi4N... So yeah, it's much higher in Sweden. The effective tax rates are 58% vs 43%.