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The lower middle class can afford decent food, just some of them don’t want to eat within their means or aren’t cost conscious. Actually I think innumeracy is

The lower middle class can afford decent food, just some of them don’t want to eat within their means or aren’t cost conscious. Actually I think innumeracy is a big problem for a lot of people with low incomes. I have a relative who I suspect is innumerate and it’s both fascinating and sad when you get insight into their budgeting/estimation abilities.

inkwater 7y ago
>innumeracy is a big problem for a lot of people with low incomes the wavefront of the system of global capital since agriculture has been the liquidation of peoples for whom mass codified exchanges of increasing complexity didn't compute
pnutjam 7y ago
Wow, that fancy talking sure makes me think you're smart. Maybe you can help me. If I make x and everything I need to live costs x+y, what do I do? Die slowly...? Work a 27 hour day?
- opportune 7y ago
  I’m not saying the system isn’t rigged against poor people. But I do personally know people who are just bad at budgeting or frequently get ripped off because they don’t know how much things are supposed to cost, and probably wouldn’t need to ask for help at the end of the month if they changed how they spent money.
  - pnutjam 7y ago
    Often, people know what something should cost, but they have to buy it through some other more expensive channel for any variety of reasons.
  - thatfrenchguy 7y ago
    I know a lot of upper middle class people in the Bay Area as well who don't know how much stuff is supposed to cost and get ripped off all the time as well ;-).
- ac29 7y ago
  Poster you're replying to wasn't talking about people who struggle to put food on the table. They were talking about lower-middle class people who truly don't (or can't) understand that buying a $40,000 truck with 18% interest for 7 years isnt a "good deal", its horrible, financially ruinous decision.
  - pnutjam 7y ago
    Well, good thing that's what the article was talking about.
txcwpalpha 7y ago
You’re getting flak for this comment and I think it’s because people aren’t interpreting your point of view fairly. There certainly are many cases where people are legitimately struggling to make ends meet (and I don’t think you’re saying otherwise) but I think you are absolutely right that another big problem is that many people are making ‘enough’ money but simply don’t know (or don’t want to) spend it wisely. It isn’t just the lower class, either. I know far too many people that make six figures and still complain that they live paycheck to paycheck, but meanwhile blow $500 at the bar every week, or buy a new $300 pair of shoes every month, or a new $1500 iPhone every year. There is a weird phenomenon where even people with means will prioritize luxuries and then complain that they don’t have enough money to save for a house or save for retirement. You see this on HN too, with several recent examples of posters saying that their $300k/year FAANG salary is too low and they can’t afford to live on it.
- opportune 7y ago
  Exactly, I don’t want to delegitimize poverty, but I do want to bring up that a lot (maybe not even most, but a decent chunk) of people with money problems have spending problems rather than earning problems. I also know people with very high incomes that spend a lot, and now that you bring that up, it reminds me that the problem in aggregate definitely has to go deeper than innumeracy (though I still think this is a problem for a lot of people). The issue I see with a lot of people in particular is spending too much on cars, food, (especially eating out) and clothes. If you make $150k+ in the Bay Area, whatever. But a lot of people with lower incomes get caught up in this. Where I’m from you can live by yourself decently on just $25k-40k a year, but you don’t have a lot of room for error.
falcolas 7y ago
It’s worth noting that the “decent food” you’re referring to takes time to prepare. Time is something that the lower middle class doesn’t have a lot of. Even 30 minutes of prep and cooking time can be too much to expect from someone after commuting home from their two jobs.
bsanr2 7y ago
The living conditions of poverty decrease cognitive capacity. So, in the cases where low-income households are not exceedingly proficient at stretching a dollar, there's an explanation for that, outside their control. In any case, your first statement is objectively wrong (they can't afford decent food), and it's incredibly insulting on both a personal and intellectual level to compare people who are unable to keep themselves from dumping hundreds of dollars on luxuries to people who are splurging on, say, a full lunch instead of the PB+J they'd have time to pack otherwise.

inkwater 7y ago

>innumeracy is a big problem for a lot of people with low incomes the wavefront of the system of global capital since agriculture has been the liquidation of peoples for whom mass codified exchanges of increasing complexity didn't compute

pnutjam 7y ago

Wow, that fancy talking sure makes me think you're smart. Maybe you can help me. If I make x and everything I need to live costs x+y, what do I do? Die slowly...? Work a 27 hour day?

opportune 7y ago
I’m not saying the system isn’t rigged against poor people. But I do personally know people who are just bad at budgeting or frequently get ripped off because they don’t know how much things are supposed to cost, and probably wouldn’t need to ask for help at the end of the month if they changed how they spent money.
- pnutjam 7y ago
  Often, people know what something should cost, but they have to buy it through some other more expensive channel for any variety of reasons.
- thatfrenchguy 7y ago
  I know a lot of upper middle class people in the Bay Area as well who don't know how much stuff is supposed to cost and get ripped off all the time as well ;-).
ac29 7y ago
Poster you're replying to wasn't talking about people who struggle to put food on the table. They were talking about lower-middle class people who truly don't (or can't) understand that buying a $40,000 truck with 18% interest for 7 years isnt a "good deal", its horrible, financially ruinous decision.
- pnutjam 7y ago
  Well, good thing that's what the article was talking about.

txcwpalpha 7y ago

You’re getting flak for this comment and I think it’s because people aren’t interpreting your point of view fairly. There certainly are many cases where people are legitimately struggling to make ends meet (and I don’t think you’re saying otherwise) but I think you are absolutely right that another big problem is that many people are making ‘enough’ money but simply don’t know (or don’t want to) spend it wisely. It isn’t just the lower class, either. I know far too many people that make six figures and still complain that they live paycheck to paycheck, but meanwhile blow $500 at the bar every week, or buy a new $300 pair of shoes every month, or a new $1500 iPhone every year. There is a weird phenomenon where even people with means will prioritize luxuries and then complain that they don’t have enough money to save for a house or save for retirement. You see this on HN too, with several recent examples of posters saying that their $300k/year FAANG salary is too low and they can’t afford to live on it.

opportune 7y ago
Exactly, I don’t want to delegitimize poverty, but I do want to bring up that a lot (maybe not even most, but a decent chunk) of people with money problems have spending problems rather than earning problems. I also know people with very high incomes that spend a lot, and now that you bring that up, it reminds me that the problem in aggregate definitely has to go deeper than innumeracy (though I still think this is a problem for a lot of people). The issue I see with a lot of people in particular is spending too much on cars, food, (especially eating out) and clothes. If you make $150k+ in the Bay Area, whatever. But a lot of people with lower incomes get caught up in this. Where I’m from you can live by yourself decently on just $25k-40k a year, but you don’t have a lot of room for error.

falcolas 7y ago

It’s worth noting that the “decent food” you’re referring to takes time to prepare. Time is something that the lower middle class doesn’t have a lot of. Even 30 minutes of prep and cooking time can be too much to expect from someone after commuting home from their two jobs.

bsanr2 7y ago

The living conditions of poverty decrease cognitive capacity. So, in the cases where low-income households are not exceedingly proficient at stretching a dollar, there's an explanation for that, outside their control. In any case, your first statement is objectively wrong (they can't afford decent food), and it's incredibly insulting on both a personal and intellectual level to compare people who are unable to keep themselves from dumping hundreds of dollars on luxuries to people who are splurging on, say, a full lunch instead of the PB+J they'd have time to pack otherwise.