5 ms·

The Soviets Sponsored a Doomed Expedition to a Hollow Earth Kingdom (2016)

54 points by BerislavLopac 7y ago

partiallypro 7y ago
A few high ranking Nazis were also believers in Hollow Earth theory. Though it's complete bunk, it is much more fun to think about than the "earth is flat" nonsense. At least this has made for good science fiction.
- happytoexplain 7y ago
  You neglect flat-earth's contribution to comedy fantasy :)
  - the_af 7y ago
    Ah, another believer. The Turtle moves!
    - pnutjam 7y ago
      His Noodlyness is displeased with your blasphemy.
- NikkiA 7y ago
  The nazi's mostly believed in the concave hollow earth theory as proposed by Cyrus Teed/Koresh and known as the religion of Koreshanity, there is some evidence Hitler himself believed in it, sending an expedition to the island of Rugen with the goal of setting up telescopes to look over the interior of the earth to spy on British fleet movements around Scapa Flow.
  - anon_cow1111 7y ago
    I feel like this is one can of worms I don't want to jump into very far... Concave means we're "on the inside" already? How did this theory deal with basic observable things like the stars moving at night?
    - scarmig 7y ago
      You could define some kind of coordinate transformation that would switch interior and exterior, with appropriate changes to physical laws. It would be impossible to empirically distinguish it from the Euclidean representation we're used to using. The weirdest part of that would be that it'd seem like light doesn't travel in straight lines, which is just crazy talk.
      - Can_Not 7y ago
        Light is affected by gravity, and affected by the medium it travels through, in fact it's only straight in a vacuum.
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    > there is some evidence Hitler himself believed in it, sending an expedition to the island of Rugen with the goal of setting up telescopes to look over the interior of the earth to spy on British fleet movements around Scapa Flow. Is there evidence of this? The Wikipedia article on the Hollow Earth, in its section on concave Hollow Earth, recounts this story about Hitler as one that had been relayed without historical evidence.
    - Jamwinner 7y ago
      There is very little. It seems that the legend of the 'Nazi Mystic' is at best overblown, and at worst mostly an embellishment by modern cable-tv 'History' programs only loosely based on fact, often bookended by bigfoot, ufo, and paranormal bullshit.
Iv 7y ago
In 1923. That was entirely reasonable at the time for a country like USSR to fund two persons to find out if that "telepathic revelation" on which many mediums seemed to agree had any grounds. 1923. Realize how much fewer we knew about the Earth, the mind, space, at the time. Plate tectonics was a new theory, still hotly debated. The origin of human people were not clear and several people were buying into this Aryan theory that caucasians came from an advanced lost civilization. Hell, CIA sponsored research into medium activities until the 70s! If there was an advanced civilization hiding underground, it was not crazy to think they had tech to send telepathic message, and it would have been irresponsible to not inquire a bit about the people who claimed knowledge about it.
- ryanmercer 7y ago
  >Plate tectonics was a new theory, still hotly debated This always gets me. Well into the 1950's it was still contested, DNA wasn't discovered until the 1950's, gravitational waves weren't detected until 2015! Even just looking at my family's first personal computer in 1995 and comparing it to the Pixel 3 I carry as a phone and the Moto x4 (which was free!!!) that I mostly just use for listening to YouTube videos at work and just how much more capability/processing power/storage they have compared to that Compaq Presario. It's truly amazing how much we've done and discovered in the past 100~ years.
  - TACIXAT 7y ago
    As powerful as our phones are, I feel they are incredibly under-utilized. There is this super computer in my pocket and I use it to check 3 websites and play some games.
    - phkahler 7y ago
      Technology isn't really relevant unless we figure out a use for it.
    - ryanmercer 7y ago
      >and I use it to check 3 websites That is a powerful use. You're connecting to a source of data that is likely weeks of travel by foot away, if not on another continent. If even one of them is a social site, like HN/Reddit/Facebook, it grants you access to the collective thoughts and works of thousands to millions of people. "I wonder what other movies so and so was in" used to be something you'd have to ask multiple individuals. "I wonder how a nuclear reactor works" was something that would have required a trip to a library and might have left you unsatisfied, now you can go on YouTube and actually see a tour of a reactor at a university and find many articles (some from nuclear/energy organizations on the first page of Google) that contain descriptions that even someone plucked form a random grade school could understand. "How do I change my oil/hang a door/learn to program/knit a scarf/sew something/plan for my retirement/order illicit goods on the darknet/repair my item" now brings you more articles and videos than you could possibly want for countless topics. While you might do these things on a daily basis, or a monthly basis, many people do use that nifty pocket computer that is their smartphone to find such things. I learn more from listening to YouTube videos and podcasts at work in a month of work days about history than I did in all of my k-12 education. For that matter I probably learn more just during my commute in a month than I did in all of my k-12 education. I can also whip that phone out and learn all sorts of things via Khan Academy, I can fire up Duolingo and TALL Drill and practice foreign language skills. I can chat with friends all over the world in real time via text, via image and video video thanks to Marco Polo/Skype/ FB Messenger/FaceTime etc. That phone is my planner, my own personal weather forecaster, my full-time navigator, a camera and a video capture device, grants me access to all manner of data I've stored in Drive/Evernote/Sheets/Docs, can give me basic translation of foreign languages in real time with the camera, allows me to manage my investments/credit cards/bank accounts and get instant notification of transactions, grants me access to insane amounts of music, let's me get a very good estimate of my dietary deficiencies via cronometer. I'd call that quite a technological accomplishment. That little black rectangle gives me the same abilities and conveniences that someone might have required an entire staff to have even 30 years ago.
NikkiA 7y ago
The hollow earth theories are actually a lot more embedded in human history than people realise, for example 'Shangri-La' is a phrase that most people will recognise, and is an alternative name for the Kingdom/City of Shambahala myth at the basis of this expedition. The myth also mutated into a competing form as 'Agartha' which is said to be a large internal kingdom protected by many mythical beasts that inhabit the caves of Tibet. Verne's novel is mostly based on the Agartha version of the myth.
- yters 7y ago
  The Odyssey, a couple of Plato's dialogues, The Aeneid, Dante's Inferno, and the Bible speak of a land of the dead that is within the earth. Probably based on the older cosmology that associated the elements with moral status of souls. Bad = earthy = go down. Good = fire = go up. In the earth is down, in the heavens is up. Souls go somewhere when the body dies, so bad souls go down into the earth and good souls go up into the heavens with the stars. Also the reason for earth centered universes. Not because ancient thinkers thought humans were so great, but because they thought humans were so bad. Saying the earth (ball of dirt and badness) orbits the Sun (ball of fire and goodness) made no sense in that context.
7thaccount 7y ago
I'm confused at the title. It seems like the Americans sponsored it outright and there is evidence the Soviets sponsored it as well.
playing_colours 7y ago
There was also Sannikov Land https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sannikov_Land https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sannikov_Land - a ghost island in the Arctic Ocean, claimed to be seen in 19 century by Russian explorer Sannikov. A few expeditions to find it were organised by baron von Toll, who eventually died there. There were attempts to find the land in Soviet time (1930s) with no results. Russian geologist Vladimir Obruchev wrote a pretty entertaining fiction novel “Sannikov Land”, where he described the land populated by dinosaurs and Onkilons, ancient Siberian humans.
- konart 7y ago
  I know we are not here for a movies links, but here is the movie link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYENPwgfJqE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYENPwgfJqE (legal)
- trhway 7y ago
  while Sannikov Land is a fiction, giving the mammoth remnants findings in the permafrost in Siberia and that the last mammoth died just 4000 years ago on an inland north of Eastern Siberia - the Wrangel Island - one can see how it could have been possible for some related legends/myths to be created long time ago and to survive/mutate into the modern time.
thraxil 7y ago
The article briefly mentions Roerich as a painter, but it's worth noting that he really was an amazing and important painter. It's worth an image search to see some of his work. Also, there's a small museum dedicated to his work on 107th street in NYC and it's one of my favorite places.
jshaqaw 7y ago
The building Roerich built on the Upper West Side as a center for his movement was rumored by some conspiracy cranks as one resting place of the holy grail until the 1970s. I love Roerich lore.

54 points by BerislavLopac 7y ago

A few high ranking Nazis were also believers in Hollow Earth theory. Though it's complete bunk, it is much more fun to think about than the "earth is flat" nonsense. At least this has made for good science fiction.

happytoexplain 7y ago
You neglect flat-earth's contribution to comedy fantasy :)
- the_af 7y ago
  Ah, another believer. The Turtle moves!
  - pnutjam 7y ago
    His Noodlyness is displeased with your blasphemy.
NikkiA 7y ago
The nazi's mostly believed in the concave hollow earth theory as proposed by Cyrus Teed/Koresh and known as the religion of Koreshanity, there is some evidence Hitler himself believed in it, sending an expedition to the island of Rugen with the goal of setting up telescopes to look over the interior of the earth to spy on British fleet movements around Scapa Flow.
- anon_cow1111 7y ago
  I feel like this is one can of worms I don't want to jump into very far... Concave means we're "on the inside" already? How did this theory deal with basic observable things like the stars moving at night?
  - scarmig 7y ago
    You could define some kind of coordinate transformation that would switch interior and exterior, with appropriate changes to physical laws. It would be impossible to empirically distinguish it from the Euclidean representation we're used to using. The weirdest part of that would be that it'd seem like light doesn't travel in straight lines, which is just crazy talk.
    - Can_Not 7y ago
      Light is affected by gravity, and affected by the medium it travels through, in fact it's only straight in a vacuum.
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  > there is some evidence Hitler himself believed in it, sending an expedition to the island of Rugen with the goal of setting up telescopes to look over the interior of the earth to spy on British fleet movements around Scapa Flow. Is there evidence of this? The Wikipedia article on the Hollow Earth, in its section on concave Hollow Earth, recounts this story about Hitler as one that had been relayed without historical evidence.
  - Jamwinner 7y ago
    There is very little. It seems that the legend of the 'Nazi Mystic' is at best overblown, and at worst mostly an embellishment by modern cable-tv 'History' programs only loosely based on fact, often bookended by bigfoot, ufo, and paranormal bullshit.

Iv 7y ago

In 1923. That was entirely reasonable at the time for a country like USSR to fund two persons to find out if that "telepathic revelation" on which many mediums seemed to agree had any grounds. 1923. Realize how much fewer we knew about the Earth, the mind, space, at the time. Plate tectonics was a new theory, still hotly debated. The origin of human people were not clear and several people were buying into this Aryan theory that caucasians came from an advanced lost civilization. Hell, CIA sponsored research into medium activities until the 70s! If there was an advanced civilization hiding underground, it was not crazy to think they had tech to send telepathic message, and it would have been irresponsible to not inquire a bit about the people who claimed knowledge about it.

ryanmercer 7y ago
>Plate tectonics was a new theory, still hotly debated This always gets me. Well into the 1950's it was still contested, DNA wasn't discovered until the 1950's, gravitational waves weren't detected until 2015! Even just looking at my family's first personal computer in 1995 and comparing it to the Pixel 3 I carry as a phone and the Moto x4 (which was free!!!) that I mostly just use for listening to YouTube videos at work and just how much more capability/processing power/storage they have compared to that Compaq Presario. It's truly amazing how much we've done and discovered in the past 100~ years.
- TACIXAT 7y ago
  As powerful as our phones are, I feel they are incredibly under-utilized. There is this super computer in my pocket and I use it to check 3 websites and play some games.
  - phkahler 7y ago
    Technology isn't really relevant unless we figure out a use for it.
  - ryanmercer 7y ago
    >and I use it to check 3 websites That is a powerful use. You're connecting to a source of data that is likely weeks of travel by foot away, if not on another continent. If even one of them is a social site, like HN/Reddit/Facebook, it grants you access to the collective thoughts and works of thousands to millions of people. "I wonder what other movies so and so was in" used to be something you'd have to ask multiple individuals. "I wonder how a nuclear reactor works" was something that would have required a trip to a library and might have left you unsatisfied, now you can go on YouTube and actually see a tour of a reactor at a university and find many articles (some from nuclear/energy organizations on the first page of Google) that contain descriptions that even someone plucked form a random grade school could understand. "How do I change my oil/hang a door/learn to program/knit a scarf/sew something/plan for my retirement/order illicit goods on the darknet/repair my item" now brings you more articles and videos than you could possibly want for countless topics. While you might do these things on a daily basis, or a monthly basis, many people do use that nifty pocket computer that is their smartphone to find such things. I learn more from listening to YouTube videos and podcasts at work in a month of work days about history than I did in all of my k-12 education. For that matter I probably learn more just during my commute in a month than I did in all of my k-12 education. I can also whip that phone out and learn all sorts of things via Khan Academy, I can fire up Duolingo and TALL Drill and practice foreign language skills. I can chat with friends all over the world in real time via text, via image and video video thanks to Marco Polo/Skype/ FB Messenger/FaceTime etc. That phone is my planner, my own personal weather forecaster, my full-time navigator, a camera and a video capture device, grants me access to all manner of data I've stored in Drive/Evernote/Sheets/Docs, can give me basic translation of foreign languages in real time with the camera, allows me to manage my investments/credit cards/bank accounts and get instant notification of transactions, grants me access to insane amounts of music, let's me get a very good estimate of my dietary deficiencies via cronometer. I'd call that quite a technological accomplishment. That little black rectangle gives me the same abilities and conveniences that someone might have required an entire staff to have even 30 years ago.

NikkiA 7y ago

The hollow earth theories are actually a lot more embedded in human history than people realise, for example 'Shangri-La' is a phrase that most people will recognise, and is an alternative name for the Kingdom/City of Shambahala myth at the basis of this expedition. The myth also mutated into a competing form as 'Agartha' which is said to be a large internal kingdom protected by many mythical beasts that inhabit the caves of Tibet. Verne's novel is mostly based on the Agartha version of the myth.

yters 7y ago
The Odyssey, a couple of Plato's dialogues, The Aeneid, Dante's Inferno, and the Bible speak of a land of the dead that is within the earth. Probably based on the older cosmology that associated the elements with moral status of souls. Bad = earthy = go down. Good = fire = go up. In the earth is down, in the heavens is up. Souls go somewhere when the body dies, so bad souls go down into the earth and good souls go up into the heavens with the stars. Also the reason for earth centered universes. Not because ancient thinkers thought humans were so great, but because they thought humans were so bad. Saying the earth (ball of dirt and badness) orbits the Sun (ball of fire and goodness) made no sense in that context.

7thaccount 7y ago

I'm confused at the title. It seems like the Americans sponsored it outright and there is evidence the Soviets sponsored it as well.

playing_colours 7y ago

There was also Sannikov Land https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sannikov_Land https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sannikov_Land - a ghost island in the Arctic Ocean, claimed to be seen in 19 century by Russian explorer Sannikov. A few expeditions to find it were organised by baron von Toll, who eventually died there. There were attempts to find the land in Soviet time (1930s) with no results. Russian geologist Vladimir Obruchev wrote a pretty entertaining fiction novel “Sannikov Land”, where he described the land populated by dinosaurs and Onkilons, ancient Siberian humans.

konart 7y ago
I know we are not here for a movies links, but here is the movie link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYENPwgfJqE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYENPwgfJqE (legal)
trhway 7y ago
while Sannikov Land is a fiction, giving the mammoth remnants findings in the permafrost in Siberia and that the last mammoth died just 4000 years ago on an inland north of Eastern Siberia - the Wrangel Island - one can see how it could have been possible for some related legends/myths to be created long time ago and to survive/mutate into the modern time.

thraxil 7y ago

The article briefly mentions Roerich as a painter, but it's worth noting that he really was an amazing and important painter. It's worth an image search to see some of his work. Also, there's a small museum dedicated to his work on 107th street in NYC and it's one of my favorite places.

jshaqaw 7y ago

The building Roerich built on the Upper West Side as a center for his movement was rumored by some conspiracy cranks as one resting place of the holy grail until the 1970s. I love Roerich lore.