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For the vast majority of jobs being absent a full work week without approval means you don't have a job the next week. Why does being an adult university studen

For the vast majority of jobs being absent a full work week without approval means you don't have a job the next week. Why does being an adult university student mean you can be absent for months and still succeed? It has nothing to do with adulthood. And why do we need instructors? Let's just give each student some textbooks and their exam schedule. If they can't succeed we're not interested in their success. The Darwinist argument can always be used to withdraw any and all levels of support. You can't use it to justify just the level of support you prefer.

dragonwriter 7y ago
> For the vast majority of jobs being absent a full work week without approval means you don't have a job the next week. College isn't a job for the student, it's a training and certification program that the student is paying for. The accreditation agencies that validate that the program is appropriate for the certifications being offered generally do not require attendance tracking, because regularity of attendance isn't what is being certified. > Why does being an adult university student mean you can be absent for months and still succeed? Attendance tracking in schools for children serves a number of purposes related to the fact that the students are children, including that students are not entrusted to review the syllabus and evaluate the level of engagement required for success on their own. Most students can't be absent for months and succeed, and if they try they will fail. Attendance tracking isn't needed for that if your assessment, grading, and academic standards are working properly (and attendance tracking doesn't fix the problem if they are not.) > And why do we need instructors? Because those are among the educational resources students are paying for (though there are universities where that is less the case than traditional universities, such as the competency-based WGU, which has won high praise from many corners.)
WalterBright 7y ago
In a job, you are being paid to perform a service. If you take the money and do not perform the service, you can expect negative consequences. As a college student, you are paying to receive a service. The college fulfilled their obligation that you paid for. Your only obligation is to pay the bill that you agreed to. You are not obliged to make use of the services provided. It's not the same situation at all.
- seventhtiger 7y ago
  So the adult argument has fell through. Now it's about being a customer. Service providers can fire customers. If you pay for membership of a club but never attend functions, the club will end your membership. If the service aims to provide a community or is invested in the success of its customers then it should fire customers who are not invested in their own success. Not to mention how many students are not customers. They are sponsored by parents and scholarships and heavily subsidized. All these stakeholders have a vested interest in academic success. Tracking attendance is better for all of them.
  - rowanG077 7y ago
    The adult argument didn't fall through. If you pay a psychologist for an appointment and you don't show up the psychologist will happily arrange another appointment and gladly receive the money. You are comparing a job to university but they are not comparable in this way.
    - seventhtiger 7y ago
      The adult argument has absolutely fallen through because adults' attendance is tracked in another situation. So it's not a matter of being adult. It's a matter of what the specific relationship is of the student to the university. It's ironic you mention psychologists. Therapists, personal trainers, life coaches, and other 1-to-1 service providers are the most likely to fire a customer for not attending. I personally know someone whose vocal coach made an ultimatum about attendance and ended up firing the customer. This is all very much adult. In the end it's the sad consumerization of higher education in America. The pricing makes students so bitter as to demand "better service" rather than "better education". A university is more like a job in most of the world.
  - WalterBright 7y ago
    If Caltech isn't the place for you, that's fine - there are many other choices. It was the place for me.

dragonwriter 7y ago

> For the vast majority of jobs being absent a full work week without approval means you don't have a job the next week. College isn't a job for the student, it's a training and certification program that the student is paying for. The accreditation agencies that validate that the program is appropriate for the certifications being offered generally do not require attendance tracking, because regularity of attendance isn't what is being certified. > Why does being an adult university student mean you can be absent for months and still succeed? Attendance tracking in schools for children serves a number of purposes related to the fact that the students are children, including that students are not entrusted to review the syllabus and evaluate the level of engagement required for success on their own. Most students can't be absent for months and succeed, and if they try they will fail. Attendance tracking isn't needed for that if your assessment, grading, and academic standards are working properly (and attendance tracking doesn't fix the problem if they are not.) > And why do we need instructors? Because those are among the educational resources students are paying for (though there are universities where that is less the case than traditional universities, such as the competency-based WGU, which has won high praise from many corners.)

WalterBright 7y ago

In a job, you are being paid to perform a service. If you take the money and do not perform the service, you can expect negative consequences. As a college student, you are paying to receive a service. The college fulfilled their obligation that you paid for. Your only obligation is to pay the bill that you agreed to. You are not obliged to make use of the services provided. It's not the same situation at all.

seventhtiger 7y ago
So the adult argument has fell through. Now it's about being a customer. Service providers can fire customers. If you pay for membership of a club but never attend functions, the club will end your membership. If the service aims to provide a community or is invested in the success of its customers then it should fire customers who are not invested in their own success. Not to mention how many students are not customers. They are sponsored by parents and scholarships and heavily subsidized. All these stakeholders have a vested interest in academic success. Tracking attendance is better for all of them.
- rowanG077 7y ago
  The adult argument didn't fall through. If you pay a psychologist for an appointment and you don't show up the psychologist will happily arrange another appointment and gladly receive the money. You are comparing a job to university but they are not comparable in this way.
  - seventhtiger 7y ago
    The adult argument has absolutely fallen through because adults' attendance is tracked in another situation. So it's not a matter of being adult. It's a matter of what the specific relationship is of the student to the university. It's ironic you mention psychologists. Therapists, personal trainers, life coaches, and other 1-to-1 service providers are the most likely to fire a customer for not attending. I personally know someone whose vocal coach made an ultimatum about attendance and ended up firing the customer. This is all very much adult. In the end it's the sad consumerization of higher education in America. The pricing makes students so bitter as to demand "better service" rather than "better education". A university is more like a job in most of the world.
- WalterBright 7y ago
  If Caltech isn't the place for you, that's fine - there are many other choices. It was the place for me.