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Yes I'm aware of your case [1]. You sold non-retail unpackaged electronics on Amazon, you are not an authorized reseller, and were accused of selling counterfei

by meritt 7y ago

Yes I'm aware of your case [1]. You sold non-retail unpackaged electronics on Amazon, you are not an authorized reseller, and were accused of selling counterfeit goods. TP-Link got you banned from Amazon. Now you're suing TP-Link for $5M-10M because you lost ~$100k/mo profit. But the story above is about actual counterfeit goods. Not people reselling wholesale goods for below MAPs to retail customers. [1] https://pdfhost.io/v/zU6v@9u0_Microsoft_Word_TSI_complaint6docx.pdf https://pdfhost.io/v/zU6v@9u0_Microsoft_Word_TSI_complaint6d...

ikeboy 7y ago
I'm responding to your point that Amazon does "little to nothing to ensure authenticity for consumers." I disagree, and I'd imagine the plaintiffs in the following cases would as well: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16620676/v-fjallraven-usa-retail-llc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16620676/v-fjallraven-u... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16601182/ems-imports-llc-v-u-tec-group-inc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16601182/ems-imports-ll... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16462329/ly-berditchev-corp-v-lavazza-premium-coffees-corp/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16462329/ly-berditchev-... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16139905/eng-sales-llc-v-mary-ruyan-llc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16139905/eng-sales-llc-... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16610999/big-birds-llc-v-cc-beauty-collection-inc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16610999/big-birds-llc-... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16440121/oj-commerce-llc-v-standard-sales-inc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16440121/oj-commerce-ll... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16438724/oj-commerce-llc-v-actiontec-electronics-inc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16438724/oj-commerce-ll... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/15028460/dj-direct-inc-v-omm-imports-inc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/15028460/dj-direct-inc-... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6846972/starke-v-tp-link-usa-corporation/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6846972/starke-v-tp-lin... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/13477612/johnson-v-incopro-inc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/13477612/johnson-v-inco... Or for that matter, the 12,000+ people who've signed a petition complaining about Amazon's overzealous enforcement at https://www.change.org/p/jeff-bezos-amazon-com-should-only-suspend-the-asin-not-the-seller https://www.change.org/p/jeff-bezos-amazon-com-should-only-s.... Read through a few of the comments there. False positives rates go up when trying to minimize the false negative rate. As such, evidence that the false positive rate is high shows that actual counterfeits are being enforced heavily as well. Anyway, OP doesn't mention any specific actions they expected Amazon to take that weren't taken. It doesn't say, for example, that they asked Amazon to take down counterfeits and were refused.
- meritt 7y ago
  I think we're in agreement regarding Amazon: They don't take an active role in policing their marketplace. They have a "report this listing" mechanism that essentially bans a seller outright, with no effort to validate the claim. They just assume it's legit by default and the seller is always in the wrong. But to be clear, the brands are the ones taking action (and thus the defendant in these lawsuits), Amazon has essentially no role. It's my view that Amazon themselves should be taking action on behalf of both consumers and sellers to ensure that: 1) products are authentic, and 2) consumers can get the best prices possible even if that's from an "unauthorized reseller"
  - ikeboy 7y ago
    I'd mostly agree with that, with the caveat that they will often restrict particular listings or brands that got a high volume of complaints, and require proof of purchase to sell. They also flag sellers that have large sales increases in a short period of time. >It's my view that Amazon themselves should be taking action on behalf of both consumers and sellers to ensure that: 1) products are authentic, and b) consumers can get the best prices possible even if that's from an "unauthorized reseller" This is reasonable. They could require proof of purchase for all products, or perhaps for all products where more than 10 units are being sold. I also think there should be a higher bar for foreign sellers, or perhaps a bond that must be posted.
    - dylz 7y ago
      I don't see why they don't require proof of purchase for every single item in their supply chain by a third party reseller, with valid, verifiable invoices issued only by the OEM.
      - ikeboy 7y ago
        1. The cost to verify all of those would be extreme. They ship billions of units in a year, that's tens of millions of invoices at a minimum. 2. "issued only by the OEM" but there are many valid suppliers that are not the brand owner. Even Amazon themselves buy from many vendors that are not the brand owner. Amazon wants those suppliers and third party sellers because they bring down pricing and have a wider selection than they'd get if they only allowed sellers buying direct.
ikeboy 7y ago
>You sold non-retail unpackaged electronics on Amazon Just to clarify: some goods were repacked in polybags, and labeled as such. This is explicitly permitted by Amazon's ToS for the cell phone category: "Amazon product detail page requirements: All non-retail packaging requires a separate detail page. All non-retail packaging requires either "[Non-Retail Packaging]" or "[Carrier Packaging]" in the title. For example: Motorola H12 Bluetooth Headset [Non-Retail Packaging] Motorola H12 Bluetooth Headset [Carrier Packaging]" https://sellercentral.amazon.com/gp/help/external/200785030?language=en-US&ref=mpbc_200877860_cont_200785030 https://sellercentral.amazon.com/gp/help/external/200785030?... This was for other products, not the tp-link products, which were all in retail packaging.

by meritt 7y ago

ikeboy 7y ago

I'm responding to your point that Amazon does "little to nothing to ensure authenticity for consumers." I disagree, and I'd imagine the plaintiffs in the following cases would as well: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16620676/v-fjallraven-usa-retail-llc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16620676/v-fjallraven-u... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16601182/ems-imports-llc-v-u-tec-group-inc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16601182/ems-imports-ll... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16462329/ly-berditchev-corp-v-lavazza-premium-coffees-corp/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16462329/ly-berditchev-... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16139905/eng-sales-llc-v-mary-ruyan-llc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16139905/eng-sales-llc-... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16610999/big-birds-llc-v-cc-beauty-collection-inc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16610999/big-birds-llc-... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16440121/oj-commerce-llc-v-standard-sales-inc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16440121/oj-commerce-ll... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16438724/oj-commerce-llc-v-actiontec-electronics-inc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16438724/oj-commerce-ll... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/15028460/dj-direct-inc-v-omm-imports-inc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/15028460/dj-direct-inc-... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6846972/starke-v-tp-link-usa-corporation/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6846972/starke-v-tp-lin... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/13477612/johnson-v-incopro-inc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/13477612/johnson-v-inco... Or for that matter, the 12,000+ people who've signed a petition complaining about Amazon's overzealous enforcement at https://www.change.org/p/jeff-bezos-amazon-com-should-only-suspend-the-asin-not-the-seller https://www.change.org/p/jeff-bezos-amazon-com-should-only-s.... Read through a few of the comments there. False positives rates go up when trying to minimize the false negative rate. As such, evidence that the false positive rate is high shows that actual counterfeits are being enforced heavily as well. Anyway, OP doesn't mention any specific actions they expected Amazon to take that weren't taken. It doesn't say, for example, that they asked Amazon to take down counterfeits and were refused.

meritt 7y ago
I think we're in agreement regarding Amazon: They don't take an active role in policing their marketplace. They have a "report this listing" mechanism that essentially bans a seller outright, with no effort to validate the claim. They just assume it's legit by default and the seller is always in the wrong. But to be clear, the brands are the ones taking action (and thus the defendant in these lawsuits), Amazon has essentially no role. It's my view that Amazon themselves should be taking action on behalf of both consumers and sellers to ensure that: 1) products are authentic, and 2) consumers can get the best prices possible even if that's from an "unauthorized reseller"
- ikeboy 7y ago
  I'd mostly agree with that, with the caveat that they will often restrict particular listings or brands that got a high volume of complaints, and require proof of purchase to sell. They also flag sellers that have large sales increases in a short period of time. >It's my view that Amazon themselves should be taking action on behalf of both consumers and sellers to ensure that: 1) products are authentic, and b) consumers can get the best prices possible even if that's from an "unauthorized reseller" This is reasonable. They could require proof of purchase for all products, or perhaps for all products where more than 10 units are being sold. I also think there should be a higher bar for foreign sellers, or perhaps a bond that must be posted.
  - dylz 7y ago
    I don't see why they don't require proof of purchase for every single item in their supply chain by a third party reseller, with valid, verifiable invoices issued only by the OEM.
    - ikeboy 7y ago
      1. The cost to verify all of those would be extreme. They ship billions of units in a year, that's tens of millions of invoices at a minimum. 2. "issued only by the OEM" but there are many valid suppliers that are not the brand owner. Even Amazon themselves buy from many vendors that are not the brand owner. Amazon wants those suppliers and third party sellers because they bring down pricing and have a wider selection than they'd get if they only allowed sellers buying direct.

ikeboy 7y ago

>You sold non-retail unpackaged electronics on Amazon Just to clarify: some goods were repacked in polybags, and labeled as such. This is explicitly permitted by Amazon's ToS for the cell phone category: "Amazon product detail page requirements: All non-retail packaging requires a separate detail page. All non-retail packaging requires either "[Non-Retail Packaging]" or "[Carrier Packaging]" in the title. For example: Motorola H12 Bluetooth Headset [Non-Retail Packaging] Motorola H12 Bluetooth Headset [Carrier Packaging]" https://sellercentral.amazon.com/gp/help/external/200785030?language=en-US&ref=mpbc_200877860_cont_200785030 https://sellercentral.amazon.com/gp/help/external/200785030?... This was for other products, not the tp-link products, which were all in retail packaging.