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We could speak the same way about police to make it obvious why some people don’t like the double edge of discretion. Isn’t it such a burden that police have to

We could speak the same way about police to make it obvious why some people don’t like the double edge of discretion. Isn’t it such a burden that police have to wear cameras? It’s probably much harder to exercise any executive discretion that way, let alone have any natural conversation, especially when people may demand lawsuits and firings over such footage. Must police be very equally kind to both white and black kids, like in some politically correct universe? Why then do some people demand cameras? Don’t they like the good old neighborhood discretion? Why is it so hard to feel for those who receive the shitty edge of discretion? Is it because the other side is so sweet? Another side of discretion is that some judges are harsher in sentencing before vs after lunch. But such a human interface...

esotericn 7y ago
My interactions with British professors are not in any way comparable to what I know about the US police! It's a really weird comparison to me. Perhaps US profs are way more uptight in general? I'm not really sure how to respond to that, to be honest.
- lonelappde 7y ago
  Discretion works great for the privileged portion of the population.
  - esotericn 7y ago
    You'll have to explain again how bad behaviour by US police generalises to professors. As far as I can tell this is simply a strawman. And even if it's not - the solution is to replace dickhead staff with reasonable human beings, not chain them with process so that everyone suffers.
    - crankylinuxuser 7y ago
      Professors, like cops, have significant power within their sphere. And tenured profs can even go to the point of calling women, gay, and black people less than human. (Indiana University Prof Rasmussen) The key here is, surveillance shouldn't be used against the students who are of low power, but instead against those who decide if the students succeed or not - the professors. Trusting power is how one gets to significant asymmetry and gross abuses. Surveillance against those types is how you start to counterbalance "discretion". https://www.indystar.com/story/news/education/2019/11/24/eric-rasmusen-says-iu-cant-fire-him-hes-right-heres-why/4272679002/ https://www.indystar.com/story/news/education/2019/11/24/eri...
      - esotericn 7y ago
        I don't think surveillance should be used here at all. Like I said, attendance at my University was not mandatory. We weren't treated like children. For many lectures I felt reading the book would be a better use of my time and so did others.
  - xvector 7y ago
    I’m with you here. I think a decay-based system or an “emergency-token” system doesn’t discriminate between students, but still manages to provide humane leeway to get things done.
ClumsyPilot 7y ago
That's not a reasonable analogy. Police cameras are there to make sure power is not abused, they are not there to eliminate discretion. There are actually multiple actors in the justice system that have a large degree of discretion, the police, the prosecutor and the judge. To me this indicates that your thesis is erroneous.
- threatofrain 7y ago
  Cameras and abuse are part of the same language of power, control, and mistrust. Discretion is a matter of trusting power, and as I've mentioned, discretion shrinks in front of a camera. When cameras provide the kind of ammunition to humiliate, sue, or pressure for job termination, then your discretion is compromised. Why did one forgive one youthful offender of marijuana possession and not the other? Was it race? These are potentially humiliating questions. We can also contemplate what it means for employers to extend monitoring to social media, and whether that compromises your willingness to express your thinking in forums, and whether monitoring employees has anything to do with control and trust. Recently US border patrol agents were found discussing Latinos and other minorities in depraved ways. Does observation of their social media restrict their individual expression? Yes it does. As to the fact that judges and other parties have discretion, well, I have at least forwarded one example of judges sentencing more harshly based on whether they've had lunch. That is part of discretion -- that some people get to enjoy the sweet fruits and others do not. This humiliating fact about judicial discretion would not have been known without observation.

esotericn 7y ago

My interactions with British professors are not in any way comparable to what I know about the US police! It's a really weird comparison to me. Perhaps US profs are way more uptight in general? I'm not really sure how to respond to that, to be honest.

lonelappde 7y ago
Discretion works great for the privileged portion of the population.
- esotericn 7y ago
  You'll have to explain again how bad behaviour by US police generalises to professors. As far as I can tell this is simply a strawman. And even if it's not - the solution is to replace dickhead staff with reasonable human beings, not chain them with process so that everyone suffers.
  - crankylinuxuser 7y ago
    Professors, like cops, have significant power within their sphere. And tenured profs can even go to the point of calling women, gay, and black people less than human. (Indiana University Prof Rasmussen) The key here is, surveillance shouldn't be used against the students who are of low power, but instead against those who decide if the students succeed or not - the professors. Trusting power is how one gets to significant asymmetry and gross abuses. Surveillance against those types is how you start to counterbalance "discretion". https://www.indystar.com/story/news/education/2019/11/24/eric-rasmusen-says-iu-cant-fire-him-hes-right-heres-why/4272679002/ https://www.indystar.com/story/news/education/2019/11/24/eri...
    - esotericn 7y ago
      I don't think surveillance should be used here at all. Like I said, attendance at my University was not mandatory. We weren't treated like children. For many lectures I felt reading the book would be a better use of my time and so did others.
- xvector 7y ago
  I’m with you here. I think a decay-based system or an “emergency-token” system doesn’t discriminate between students, but still manages to provide humane leeway to get things done.

ClumsyPilot 7y ago

That's not a reasonable analogy. Police cameras are there to make sure power is not abused, they are not there to eliminate discretion. There are actually multiple actors in the justice system that have a large degree of discretion, the police, the prosecutor and the judge. To me this indicates that your thesis is erroneous.

threatofrain 7y ago
Cameras and abuse are part of the same language of power, control, and mistrust. Discretion is a matter of trusting power, and as I've mentioned, discretion shrinks in front of a camera. When cameras provide the kind of ammunition to humiliate, sue, or pressure for job termination, then your discretion is compromised. Why did one forgive one youthful offender of marijuana possession and not the other? Was it race? These are potentially humiliating questions. We can also contemplate what it means for employers to extend monitoring to social media, and whether that compromises your willingness to express your thinking in forums, and whether monitoring employees has anything to do with control and trust. Recently US border patrol agents were found discussing Latinos and other minorities in depraved ways. Does observation of their social media restrict their individual expression? Yes it does. As to the fact that judges and other parties have discretion, well, I have at least forwarded one example of judges sentencing more harshly based on whether they've had lunch. That is part of discretion -- that some people get to enjoy the sweet fruits and others do not. This humiliating fact about judicial discretion would not have been known without observation.