4 ms·

We need to figure out how to live together before we live together in space. Imagine how easy it would be to damage or destroy a relatively flimsy man-made hab

by daenz 7y ago

We need to figure out how to live together before we live together in space. Imagine how easy it would be to damage or destroy a relatively flimsy man-made habitat that everyone literally depends on to survive.

ddorian43 7y ago
Space kamikaze
int_19h 7y ago
Perhaps that kind of forcing function is exactly what is needed?
edgyquant 7y ago
That isn't going to happen tho. People will be living in space way before they figure out how to get along because getting along is something that humans will never do: maybe what ever species we evolve in to might but that is surely thousands of years in the future.
- ars 7y ago
  The drive to compete is what causes progress, and not getting along is an inevitable side effect of that. Any species that gets along perfectly either has telepathy (or some sort of unfakeable hormonal equivalent), is some kind of hive/single individual, or is stagnant.
  - ben_w 7y ago
    For these purposes, all we need is to get rid of (or at the very least properly control) violent tendencies. We don’t need to make it so everyone’s singing religious rock songs around a fake camp fire to celebrate everyone getting a participation medal in cooperative soccer.
    - ars 7y ago
      But violence is the same as disagreement plus enforcing your opinion. You obviously can't get rid of disagreement. And enforcing your opinion is the bedrock of change. So I don't believe it's possible to get rid of the desire for violence without stagnation. You can certainly get rid of it in action, but the desire is still there, just suppressed.
      - ben_w 7y ago
        My bosses have never needed violence to enforce their opinions, and I have never needed to resort to violence against them when working relationships have turned sour. And ridding the action is all that is necessary for us to not die from civil disorder in a space settlement.
        keiferski 7y ago
        This is only because the (threat of) violence has been outsourced to the state. Imagine that there is no state monopoly on violence [1] and your boss pays you directly in food, which you need to survive. Suddenly he refuses to pay you and you face starvation. Now you’re pretty likely to resort to violence. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence
        ben_w 7y ago
        I’ve mostly avoided needing to involve the state, too. My personality is more of “compete by being better” and I regard violence (and regulatory capture) as cheating. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not an anarchist — I agree that state monopoly on violence would be spontaneously recreated if it was removed. I’m also a lot more dubious about the political future than about the technological future. But, that’s beside the point: I’m saying that we could, plausibly, have social and political structures that suppress our violent tendencies and in so doing make it not ridiculously unsafe to live in a fragile space habitat. This is not without precedent, as we are less violent now than we were a mere few hundred years ago, and have managed this with little in the way of actual evolution.
m4rtink 7y ago
Well, that's not too different from modern urban.infrastructure & we don't see such issues too much, outside of major armed conflicts.
dsq 7y ago
Only by going to space will we develop the skills and economic resources to live better here on Earth.
ryanmercer 7y ago
Without getting too spoilery, Ad Astra depicts some handheld weapons in space. The movie is slllowww but visually wonderful. That isn't all that far fetched, both the USSR and the United States looked at various options for space weapons. Traditional firearms like the TP-82 carried by the soviets and various options were looked at for new weapons by both sides like the 'Soviet laser pistol' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_laser_pistol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_laser_pistol There are some documents out there like "The Meanderings of a Weapon Oriented Mind When Applied in a Vacuum Such as the Moon" (just Google the title, click the link you trust) that show various other types that we know were looked at. The Soviets even put an autocannon on the Salyut 3, and even fired 20 rounds on orbit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almaz#Defense_measures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almaz#Defense_measures

by daenz 7y ago

ddorian43 7y ago

Space kamikaze

int_19h 7y ago

Perhaps that kind of forcing function is exactly what is needed?

edgyquant 7y ago

That isn't going to happen tho. People will be living in space way before they figure out how to get along because getting along is something that humans will never do: maybe what ever species we evolve in to might but that is surely thousands of years in the future.

ars 7y ago
The drive to compete is what causes progress, and not getting along is an inevitable side effect of that. Any species that gets along perfectly either has telepathy (or some sort of unfakeable hormonal equivalent), is some kind of hive/single individual, or is stagnant.
- ben_w 7y ago
  For these purposes, all we need is to get rid of (or at the very least properly control) violent tendencies. We don’t need to make it so everyone’s singing religious rock songs around a fake camp fire to celebrate everyone getting a participation medal in cooperative soccer.
  - ars 7y ago
    But violence is the same as disagreement plus enforcing your opinion. You obviously can't get rid of disagreement. And enforcing your opinion is the bedrock of change. So I don't believe it's possible to get rid of the desire for violence without stagnation. You can certainly get rid of it in action, but the desire is still there, just suppressed.
    - ben_w 7y ago
      My bosses have never needed violence to enforce their opinions, and I have never needed to resort to violence against them when working relationships have turned sour. And ridding the action is all that is necessary for us to not die from civil disorder in a space settlement.
      - keiferski 7y ago
        This is only because the (threat of) violence has been outsourced to the state. Imagine that there is no state monopoly on violence [1] and your boss pays you directly in food, which you need to survive. Suddenly he refuses to pay you and you face starvation. Now you’re pretty likely to resort to violence. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence
        ben_w 7y ago
        I’ve mostly avoided needing to involve the state, too. My personality is more of “compete by being better” and I regard violence (and regulatory capture) as cheating. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not an anarchist — I agree that state monopoly on violence would be spontaneously recreated if it was removed. I’m also a lot more dubious about the political future than about the technological future. But, that’s beside the point: I’m saying that we could, plausibly, have social and political structures that suppress our violent tendencies and in so doing make it not ridiculously unsafe to live in a fragile space habitat. This is not without precedent, as we are less violent now than we were a mere few hundred years ago, and have managed this with little in the way of actual evolution.

m4rtink 7y ago

Well, that's not too different from modern urban.infrastructure & we don't see such issues too much, outside of major armed conflicts.

dsq 7y ago

Only by going to space will we develop the skills and economic resources to live better here on Earth.

ryanmercer 7y ago

Without getting too spoilery, Ad Astra depicts some handheld weapons in space. The movie is slllowww but visually wonderful. That isn't all that far fetched, both the USSR and the United States looked at various options for space weapons. Traditional firearms like the TP-82 carried by the soviets and various options were looked at for new weapons by both sides like the 'Soviet laser pistol' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_laser_pistol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_laser_pistol There are some documents out there like "The Meanderings of a Weapon Oriented Mind When Applied in a Vacuum Such as the Moon" (just Google the title, click the link you trust) that show various other types that we know were looked at. The Soviets even put an autocannon on the Salyut 3, and even fired 20 rounds on orbit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almaz#Defense_measures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almaz#Defense_measures