6 ms·

When it comes to geniuses, the inability to hold down a job, eccentricity of style, rudeness, etc, are features, not bugs. The potential benefit to society far

When it comes to geniuses, the inability to hold down a job, eccentricity of style, rudeness, etc, are features, not bugs. The potential benefit to society far outweighs the very real inconvenience they cause to the people around them. So how to accommodate? I would say: (1) identify by their record, (2) attract them, (3) give them a space and a budget, (4) no responsibilities and no position of authority, (5) answerable, informally, to just one person, say a vice-chancellor, (6) exempt from all questionnaires, committees, audits, compulsory teaching, form-filling, etc (7) leave them alone.

jacinabox 7y ago
What should I do if a genius in my employ comes up with an innovation of benefit to society?
- bryanrasmussen 7y ago
  I suppose that would depend on what kind of organization you lead, I suppose most for profit organizations would create a program or structure to monetize the beneficial innovation and reward the innovator slightly in contrast to how much reward the innovation brings, perhaps even spin off a new company - if yours is a governmental organization then this would probably require writing up some reports, asking for funding, and maybe turning the innovation up to the proper agency for dealing with that type of innovation. In the case of NGOs I suppose the history of the Lifestraw would be illustrative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LifeStraw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LifeStraw
  - ant6n 7y ago
    That Wiki entry doesn't seem to have anything about a genius working in an NGO, so how is it illustrative.
    - bryanrasmussen 7y ago
      It's illustrative of how an NGO ends up handling an extremely innovative solution. Since I haven't seen any quantifiable measurement of what makes genius I can't say the lifestraw isn't the work of one. However comparing what came before and it, I suspect if it isn't - it's pretty close.
- pjc50 7y ago
  Make sure you have the rights?
bryanrasmussen 7y ago
I have met more people who where eccentric in style and rude, and unable to hold down more than the most rudimentary jobs, that thought these behaviors would be strong indicators of genius to all that encountered them, than I have met actual geniuses.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  But they do exist. And it's up to the rest of us to evaluate carefully to avoid throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
  - bryanrasmussen 7y ago
    I suppose so, but I'm not sure that geniuses must be rude and eccentric in style, in fact if these factors are based in rejecting a normal society perhaps the genius would reject that society's assumption of the stereotype.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      I think I've met one true genius in my life so far, and what struck me is that he simply didn't have time for all those things that we consider politeness. It just wasn't on his radar at all, he didn't mean to be rude, it's just that without all that syntactic sugar that we are used to he appeared to be rude. But if you simply ignored that part there was a lot to learn, and only over time did I come to realize and understand some of the bits that passed right over my head and how deep those insights are. It must be super frustrating to be that smart and to have continuous interfacing issues with other people, even the ones that try their hardest to keep up.
      - OnlineGladiator 7y ago
        > I think I've met one true genius in my life so far I'm really curious what your criterion or threshold for genius is. I realize it's likely a fuzzy topic and we don't need to get into a tangent about the philosophy of intelligence (although I'm not opposed to it, just trying to avoid a larger discussion), but you must have some way of deciding that the person you are referencing is a genius. How did you determine that?
zarkov99 7y ago
They are definitely bugs I am sorry. There might be easy work arounds, sure, but they are bugs nonetheless, in that these characteristics do not benefit their owner or anyone else.
- grabbalacious 7y ago
  It isn't nice, I know, but it comes down to: agreeable people tend to agree with other people. So they can't make significant original contributions.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    You are mis-understanding the meaning of the word 'agreeable'. Agreeable people do not tend to agree with other people, they tend to get along well with other people. "agreeable: quite enjoyable and pleasurable; pleasant."
    - grabbalacious 7y ago
      I'm not arguing from the meaning of the word. People with different opinions have a hard time getting along. (Which is why I'm being downvoted by people who advocate for niceness!) People in general are scared of being singled out for disapprobation by the group and so they self-censor and don't create new ideas in the first place.
      - jacquesm 7y ago
        > People with different opinions have a hard time getting along. Not necessarily. As long as they are civil and able to articulate their differences in a good way chances are the viewpoints will be shifted and possibly converge. It's a problem when people become so invested in their viewpoints and opinions that they become a part of their identity. That's one way to become a person who is going to react in a not-so-nice way to seeing those viewpoints and opinions challenged.
  - kryptiskt 7y ago
stuartc842 7y ago
rudeness is a team-killer and an idea-silencer, not an inconvenience.
- grabbalacious 7y ago
  Hence (7) leave them alone!
- asjw 7y ago
  And a filter for people with not enough motivation
  - stuartc842 7y ago
    ... which is a bad thing. unless you prefer motivated people more than good ideas.
    - walterstucco 7y ago
      Is it true though or is it just speculation? AFAIK there is no correlation between being highly motivated and not having great ideas. In my experience the opposite is true: great ideas go together with the stubbornness to follow them.
andai 7y ago
Does such a place exist? Could it be made to exist?
- HenryKissinger 7y ago
  The Princeton Institute for Advanced Study.
quickthrower2 7y ago
Or (8) let them start their own company! Founders are always exempt from social pressures inflicted on staff.
geomark 7y ago
Certainly there must be geniuses who are quite the opposite, who are so masterful at social skills that they are able to bend the masses to their wills while seeming most pleasant.
- solveit 7y ago
  They're in politics, consulting, and the like. Not even being snarky.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
throwlaplace 7y ago
my favorite counter-example here is john bardeen[1]; wins 2 nobel prizes in physics (theory and experiment!) and yet by all accounts was warm and friendly and polite[2]. every time there's some kind of comment like this it always strikes me as self-serving or projection. i have always believed and argued that if you're smart enough for the difficult things (arbitrary tough stem thing) then you're smart enough for the simple things (pleasantries). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bardeen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bardeen [2] https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2003-01-25-0301250052-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2003-01-25-030125...
perl4ever 7y ago
"When it comes to geniuses, the inability to hold down a job, eccentricity of style, rudeness, etc, are features, not bugs. The potential benefit to society far outweighs the very real inconvenience they cause to the people around them." I think that this is purely an illusion due to a selection effect. People associate (technical, scientific, artistic) talent and intelligence with mental illness because the people with mental illness that they are aware of have to have compensating qualities in order to be noticed, achieve notable things, and/or lead anything near a normal life. But the ones that don't, are essentially invisible or easily dismissed (criminals, homeless, not working, etc). It doesn't matter if you're a genius or not, you'd be better off not dragging around a ball and chain.
- grabbalacious 7y ago
  If you look at the historical record you'll find that most geniuses were awkward and eccentric people. They didn't send Christmas cards; they mostly just wanted to be left alone to do their unique, self-chosen work. The 'features' I mentioned are a symptom of that. We underestimate how much focus the average person puts into being nice and conforming to social expectations. Btw, not advocating those behaviours nor trying to spot geniuses. Can't identify a genius except by his record of creative achievement (as judged by workers in his field).
qxga 7y ago
>the inability to hold down a job, eccentricity of style, rudeness It's called the autism spectrum. These are not features. Source: on it.
SuoDuanDao 7y ago
I've been thinking about a culture that nurtured genius in everyone, and I can definitely see why your take is controversial. I think it's not so much that geniuses are unable to hold down a job/be civil/move with the herd as that fundamentally, geniuses will always consider these things secondary priorities. They'll do these things insofar as it serves their muse, and they'll neglect them insofar as that serves their muse.

jacinabox 7y ago

What should I do if a genius in my employ comes up with an innovation of benefit to society?

bryanrasmussen 7y ago
I suppose that would depend on what kind of organization you lead, I suppose most for profit organizations would create a program or structure to monetize the beneficial innovation and reward the innovator slightly in contrast to how much reward the innovation brings, perhaps even spin off a new company - if yours is a governmental organization then this would probably require writing up some reports, asking for funding, and maybe turning the innovation up to the proper agency for dealing with that type of innovation. In the case of NGOs I suppose the history of the Lifestraw would be illustrative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LifeStraw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LifeStraw
- ant6n 7y ago
  That Wiki entry doesn't seem to have anything about a genius working in an NGO, so how is it illustrative.
  - bryanrasmussen 7y ago
    It's illustrative of how an NGO ends up handling an extremely innovative solution. Since I haven't seen any quantifiable measurement of what makes genius I can't say the lifestraw isn't the work of one. However comparing what came before and it, I suspect if it isn't - it's pretty close.
pjc50 7y ago
Make sure you have the rights?

bryanrasmussen 7y ago

I have met more people who where eccentric in style and rude, and unable to hold down more than the most rudimentary jobs, that thought these behaviors would be strong indicators of genius to all that encountered them, than I have met actual geniuses.

jacquesm 7y ago
But they do exist. And it's up to the rest of us to evaluate carefully to avoid throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
- bryanrasmussen 7y ago
  I suppose so, but I'm not sure that geniuses must be rude and eccentric in style, in fact if these factors are based in rejecting a normal society perhaps the genius would reject that society's assumption of the stereotype.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    I think I've met one true genius in my life so far, and what struck me is that he simply didn't have time for all those things that we consider politeness. It just wasn't on his radar at all, he didn't mean to be rude, it's just that without all that syntactic sugar that we are used to he appeared to be rude. But if you simply ignored that part there was a lot to learn, and only over time did I come to realize and understand some of the bits that passed right over my head and how deep those insights are. It must be super frustrating to be that smart and to have continuous interfacing issues with other people, even the ones that try their hardest to keep up.
    - OnlineGladiator 7y ago
      > I think I've met one true genius in my life so far I'm really curious what your criterion or threshold for genius is. I realize it's likely a fuzzy topic and we don't need to get into a tangent about the philosophy of intelligence (although I'm not opposed to it, just trying to avoid a larger discussion), but you must have some way of deciding that the person you are referencing is a genius. How did you determine that?

zarkov99 7y ago

They are definitely bugs I am sorry. There might be easy work arounds, sure, but they are bugs nonetheless, in that these characteristics do not benefit their owner or anyone else.

grabbalacious 7y ago
It isn't nice, I know, but it comes down to: agreeable people tend to agree with other people. So they can't make significant original contributions.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  You are mis-understanding the meaning of the word 'agreeable'. Agreeable people do not tend to agree with other people, they tend to get along well with other people. "agreeable: quite enjoyable and pleasurable; pleasant."
  - grabbalacious 7y ago
    I'm not arguing from the meaning of the word. People with different opinions have a hard time getting along. (Which is why I'm being downvoted by people who advocate for niceness!) People in general are scared of being singled out for disapprobation by the group and so they self-censor and don't create new ideas in the first place.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      > People with different opinions have a hard time getting along. Not necessarily. As long as they are civil and able to articulate their differences in a good way chances are the viewpoints will be shifted and possibly converge. It's a problem when people become so invested in their viewpoints and opinions that they become a part of their identity. That's one way to become a person who is going to react in a not-so-nice way to seeing those viewpoints and opinions challenged.
- kryptiskt 7y ago

stuartc842 7y ago

rudeness is a team-killer and an idea-silencer, not an inconvenience.

grabbalacious 7y ago
Hence (7) leave them alone!
asjw 7y ago
And a filter for people with not enough motivation
- stuartc842 7y ago
  ... which is a bad thing. unless you prefer motivated people more than good ideas.
  - walterstucco 7y ago
    Is it true though or is it just speculation? AFAIK there is no correlation between being highly motivated and not having great ideas. In my experience the opposite is true: great ideas go together with the stubbornness to follow them.

andai 7y ago

Does such a place exist? Could it be made to exist?

HenryKissinger 7y ago
The Princeton Institute for Advanced Study.

quickthrower2 7y ago

Or (8) let them start their own company! Founders are always exempt from social pressures inflicted on staff.

geomark 7y ago

Certainly there must be geniuses who are quite the opposite, who are so masterful at social skills that they are able to bend the masses to their wills while seeming most pleasant.

solveit 7y ago
They're in politics, consulting, and the like. Not even being snarky.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

throwlaplace 7y ago

my favorite counter-example here is john bardeen[1]; wins 2 nobel prizes in physics (theory and experiment!) and yet by all accounts was warm and friendly and polite[2]. every time there's some kind of comment like this it always strikes me as self-serving or projection. i have always believed and argued that if you're smart enough for the difficult things (arbitrary tough stem thing) then you're smart enough for the simple things (pleasantries). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bardeen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bardeen [2] https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2003-01-25-0301250052-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2003-01-25-030125...

perl4ever 7y ago

"When it comes to geniuses, the inability to hold down a job, eccentricity of style, rudeness, etc, are features, not bugs. The potential benefit to society far outweighs the very real inconvenience they cause to the people around them." I think that this is purely an illusion due to a selection effect. People associate (technical, scientific, artistic) talent and intelligence with mental illness because the people with mental illness that they are aware of have to have compensating qualities in order to be noticed, achieve notable things, and/or lead anything near a normal life. But the ones that don't, are essentially invisible or easily dismissed (criminals, homeless, not working, etc). It doesn't matter if you're a genius or not, you'd be better off not dragging around a ball and chain.

grabbalacious 7y ago
If you look at the historical record you'll find that most geniuses were awkward and eccentric people. They didn't send Christmas cards; they mostly just wanted to be left alone to do their unique, self-chosen work. The 'features' I mentioned are a symptom of that. We underestimate how much focus the average person puts into being nice and conforming to social expectations. Btw, not advocating those behaviours nor trying to spot geniuses. Can't identify a genius except by his record of creative achievement (as judged by workers in his field).

qxga 7y ago

>the inability to hold down a job, eccentricity of style, rudeness It's called the autism spectrum. These are not features. Source: on it.

SuoDuanDao 7y ago

I've been thinking about a culture that nurtured genius in everyone, and I can definitely see why your take is controversial. I think it's not so much that geniuses are unable to hold down a job/be civil/move with the herd as that fundamentally, geniuses will always consider these things secondary priorities. They'll do these things insofar as it serves their muse, and they'll neglect them insofar as that serves their muse.