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I live in Poland. Before 89 when my country was occupied by Russia, "Soviet Santa" was forced here to replace Santa Clous. It was one of many things that was ma

I live in Poland. Before 89 when my country was occupied by Russia, "Soviet Santa" was forced here to replace Santa Clous. It was one of many things that was made to erase Christianity and replace it with atheism and communism. Fake Christmas, fake Santa, zero beliefs. I was young back than but i felt its shallow and dark. So for me Soviet Santa is a symbol of the occupation and Russian tyrrany Poland was under until 89...

cat199 7y ago
The connection of the solidarity movement and JPII with the downfall of communism is strong, and not without reason - official communist ideology seeks to destroy religion by force of arms. Apparently as witnessed by downvoting, some don't like anyone to acknowledge this fact.
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't go on about downvoting–it's tedious and breaks the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Also, please don't take HN threads into religious or ideological flamewar. Your comment doesn't exactly go there but it's a step in that direction, and we're trying to avoid that on this site.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
trhway 7y ago
history is never one-sided like hand-picking of facts and interpretations tends to present. Together with the "occupation by Russia" Poland also got to annex significant parts of German territories (some of those had had no valid Polish claim, like for example the Prussia, some had been historically contested between German and Poland) - it was practically spoils of war gifted by the "Russian occupiers" to Poland (any gratitude for the gift?). The "occupation" has ended 30 years ago, and that is basically a right thing. Any plans on giving the annexed territories back?
- fishnchips 7y ago
  Yes, we’re planning to return it to Sorbia once Germany grants it independence. /s
- ethelward 7y ago
  > Any plans on giving the annexed territories back? Sure, if the Germans give it back to [the original Prussians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussians), it would only be fair.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- tomaszs 7y ago
  Polish borders were decided in Postdam conferrence between USA, UK and USSR with a pupped goverment that acted as reprezentation of Poland. But they were USSR designates. Polish government in excile was not invited to the talks. So Poland could not annex anything. The big 3 decided how to draw borders.
  - trhway 7y ago
    i see. So, Poland was a victim forced by the occupants to take the lands. "They made us do it!". Well, now that the occupants is long gone, and the Poland is finally free ... When does Poland is going to get rid of this last disgusting vestige and symbol of occupation, ie. those foreign lands forced upon the Poland? As far as i see, judging by the booming development of resorts and everything else going on for example on the Baltic sea shores in the former Prussia, Poland is planning to enjoy these "forced" gifts from the occupants for a very long time ahead. All that while continuing to cry how bad the "occupation" was for Poland. :)
c-smile 7y ago
Could you elaborate on "Poland was occupied by Russia"? Let's put alone that in 89 it was USSR so Russia, Ukraine, Belorussia, etc. all together. In any case there were no Russian troops stationed in Poland. Quite opposite, Poland and its army was one of leading members of Warsaw Pact (the name, sic!). So what does "occupation" mean in your statement?
- llukas 7y ago
  Get your facts straight: USSR troops were stationed in Poland. Wheter it was occupation or not is debatable.
- cat199 7y ago
  Not OP, but see Hungary '56 and Czechoslovakia '68 for what happens to 'leading warsaw pact members' who decide they want to deviate from the soviet party line.
  - lucian1900 7y ago
    Yes, we should be so sad that fascist uprisings threatening to exterminate the poor, disabled and non-native were instead defeated with help from friendly socialist countries. Not all protests, uprisings and revolutions are good. Look at their class character and composition.
    - cat199 7y ago
      a) Thread context was communist poland being a vassal of the USSR, whose policy was subordinate to the CPSU. These examples highlight that policy was not in fact independent in these countries, and, when significant deviation occured, soviet military invasion was a consequence. Whether the uprisings / deviations are good or bad is secondary to this point. b) As for 'facism': show me the 'facism' in the key documents: HU: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demands_of_Hungarian_Revolutionaries_of_1956 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demands_of_Hungarian_Revolutio... CS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_with_a_human_face https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_with_a_human_face (yes, wikipedia scholarship, better sources welcome) while I have no doubt that facists would piggy-back on to any anti-communist movement to seize a moment of opportunity, framing either of these as 'facist' at their core is at best poor analysis. Even hard-core bolsheviks would differentiate betwean 'bourgeois-democratic reactionaries' and 'facists' since being clear in distinction is necessary for proper argument/strategy.
dang 7y ago
All: come on you guys. Let's not have nationalistic flamewar for Christmas please. Nor any other day on HN.
- tomaszs 7y ago
  You dont have any right for tone policing. And i find your comment extremely offensive.
  - dang 7y ago
    I'm a moderator here; it's my job to prevent this site from destroying itself, which is what subthreads like this converge to. I said "all" as a way of addressing every commenter who was posting in this spirit—not just you. Your comment wasn't so bad, since you were simply describing your experience and your feelings. But it's the root of exactly the sort of flamewar we don't want on HN. The internet can't handle arguing about this kind of thing without losing its mind. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - tomaszs 7y ago
      I browse the comment section and all i see ia regular discussion. With no flame whatsoever. And a moderator who censored my experience and offended not only me but everyone who would like to share theirs. I still didnt get an apology for it.
      - tomhoward 7y ago
        > I browse the comment section and all i see is regular discussion. With no flame whatsoever. One time many years ago, as a much younger man, I received a parking fine for parking too long in a time-limited spot outside my home, having not bothered to organise a residents' permit. Irate, I took it "all the way to city hall" to contest the fine on the grounds of injustice and superfluousness. On meeting the municipal officials in the arbitration room, I protested "I don't understand why you need to issue tickets in that street; there's always plenty of parking available". They looked back at me as the naive young fool that I was and explained: "Do you know why there's always parking available for you? It's because we enforce the rules." Duly chastened, I paid the fine, got a permit, and received no further penalties. And for the subsequent three years I lived at that house, there continued to be plenty of parking available.
jaakl 7y ago
I did not know about Poland to be occupied, but recall myself when Baltic countries (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) had similar fate for almost 50 years - everything related to Christmas was translated somehow to New Year and real christian celebration was effectively banned. I remember having strange remarks in school (in mid-80ies) when we had Santa Claus instead official DedMaroz in home secretly. Nothing serious anymore then. Next interesting time was in 90ies with re-independence, all it was converted back to very christian and churches were packed in Christmas eve. New Year was regarded as soviet thing for some time. Now we see some revival of more joyful new year celebrations and current agnostic president did not even go to the christmas mass. Which was small scandal but a sign of times also.

cat199 7y ago

The connection of the solidarity movement and JPII with the downfall of communism is strong, and not without reason - official communist ideology seeks to destroy religion by force of arms. Apparently as witnessed by downvoting, some don't like anyone to acknowledge this fact.

dang 7y ago
Please don't go on about downvoting–it's tedious and breaks the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Also, please don't take HN threads into religious or ideological flamewar. Your comment doesn't exactly go there but it's a step in that direction, and we're trying to avoid that on this site.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

trhway 7y ago

history is never one-sided like hand-picking of facts and interpretations tends to present. Together with the "occupation by Russia" Poland also got to annex significant parts of German territories (some of those had had no valid Polish claim, like for example the Prussia, some had been historically contested between German and Poland) - it was practically spoils of war gifted by the "Russian occupiers" to Poland (any gratitude for the gift?). The "occupation" has ended 30 years ago, and that is basically a right thing. Any plans on giving the annexed territories back?

fishnchips 7y ago
Yes, we’re planning to return it to Sorbia once Germany grants it independence. /s
ethelward 7y ago
> Any plans on giving the annexed territories back? Sure, if the Germans give it back to [the original Prussians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussians), it would only be fair.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
tomaszs 7y ago
Polish borders were decided in Postdam conferrence between USA, UK and USSR with a pupped goverment that acted as reprezentation of Poland. But they were USSR designates. Polish government in excile was not invited to the talks. So Poland could not annex anything. The big 3 decided how to draw borders.
- trhway 7y ago
  i see. So, Poland was a victim forced by the occupants to take the lands. "They made us do it!". Well, now that the occupants is long gone, and the Poland is finally free ... When does Poland is going to get rid of this last disgusting vestige and symbol of occupation, ie. those foreign lands forced upon the Poland? As far as i see, judging by the booming development of resorts and everything else going on for example on the Baltic sea shores in the former Prussia, Poland is planning to enjoy these "forced" gifts from the occupants for a very long time ahead. All that while continuing to cry how bad the "occupation" was for Poland. :)

c-smile 7y ago

Could you elaborate on "Poland was occupied by Russia"? Let's put alone that in 89 it was USSR so Russia, Ukraine, Belorussia, etc. all together. In any case there were no Russian troops stationed in Poland. Quite opposite, Poland and its army was one of leading members of Warsaw Pact (the name, sic!). So what does "occupation" mean in your statement?

llukas 7y ago
Get your facts straight: USSR troops were stationed in Poland. Wheter it was occupation or not is debatable.
cat199 7y ago
Not OP, but see Hungary '56 and Czechoslovakia '68 for what happens to 'leading warsaw pact members' who decide they want to deviate from the soviet party line.
- lucian1900 7y ago
  Yes, we should be so sad that fascist uprisings threatening to exterminate the poor, disabled and non-native were instead defeated with help from friendly socialist countries. Not all protests, uprisings and revolutions are good. Look at their class character and composition.
  - cat199 7y ago
    a) Thread context was communist poland being a vassal of the USSR, whose policy was subordinate to the CPSU. These examples highlight that policy was not in fact independent in these countries, and, when significant deviation occured, soviet military invasion was a consequence. Whether the uprisings / deviations are good or bad is secondary to this point. b) As for 'facism': show me the 'facism' in the key documents: HU: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demands_of_Hungarian_Revolutionaries_of_1956 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demands_of_Hungarian_Revolutio... CS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_with_a_human_face https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_with_a_human_face (yes, wikipedia scholarship, better sources welcome) while I have no doubt that facists would piggy-back on to any anti-communist movement to seize a moment of opportunity, framing either of these as 'facist' at their core is at best poor analysis. Even hard-core bolsheviks would differentiate betwean 'bourgeois-democratic reactionaries' and 'facists' since being clear in distinction is necessary for proper argument/strategy.

dang 7y ago

All: come on you guys. Let's not have nationalistic flamewar for Christmas please. Nor any other day on HN.

tomaszs 7y ago
You dont have any right for tone policing. And i find your comment extremely offensive.
- dang 7y ago
  I'm a moderator here; it's my job to prevent this site from destroying itself, which is what subthreads like this converge to. I said "all" as a way of addressing every commenter who was posting in this spirit—not just you. Your comment wasn't so bad, since you were simply describing your experience and your feelings. But it's the root of exactly the sort of flamewar we don't want on HN. The internet can't handle arguing about this kind of thing without losing its mind. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - tomaszs 7y ago
    I browse the comment section and all i see ia regular discussion. With no flame whatsoever. And a moderator who censored my experience and offended not only me but everyone who would like to share theirs. I still didnt get an apology for it.
    - tomhoward 7y ago
      > I browse the comment section and all i see is regular discussion. With no flame whatsoever. One time many years ago, as a much younger man, I received a parking fine for parking too long in a time-limited spot outside my home, having not bothered to organise a residents' permit. Irate, I took it "all the way to city hall" to contest the fine on the grounds of injustice and superfluousness. On meeting the municipal officials in the arbitration room, I protested "I don't understand why you need to issue tickets in that street; there's always plenty of parking available". They looked back at me as the naive young fool that I was and explained: "Do you know why there's always parking available for you? It's because we enforce the rules." Duly chastened, I paid the fine, got a permit, and received no further penalties. And for the subsequent three years I lived at that house, there continued to be plenty of parking available.

jaakl 7y ago

I did not know about Poland to be occupied, but recall myself when Baltic countries (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) had similar fate for almost 50 years - everything related to Christmas was translated somehow to New Year and real christian celebration was effectively banned. I remember having strange remarks in school (in mid-80ies) when we had Santa Claus instead official DedMaroz in home secretly. Nothing serious anymore then. Next interesting time was in 90ies with re-independence, all it was converted back to very christian and churches were packed in Christmas eve. New Year was regarded as soviet thing for some time. Now we see some revival of more joyful new year celebrations and current agnostic president did not even go to the christmas mass. Which was small scandal but a sign of times also.