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My all-time anti-favorite UI thing like this is Mac dialogs where two different buttons are focused. E.g. when closing a file with unsaved edits, you typically
by fenomas 7y ago
My all-time anti-favorite UI thing like this is Mac dialogs where two different buttons are focused.
E.g. when closing a file with unsaved edits, you typically get a dialog with three buttons:
[Don't save] Cancel [Save]
"Don't save" and "Save" are both highlighted, but in two different ways - and for added excitement, spacebar activates one of them and Enter activates the other. Feeling lucky?
- rado 7y agoFully highlighted button responds to Enter, the most powerful action. The button with a border only is associated with the secondary action, space bar. Makes perfect sense.
- dredmorbius 7y agoRegarding "intuitive": https://invidio.us/watch?v=updE5LVe6tg https://invidio.us/watch?v=updE5LVe6tg (Ellen's Millennial challenge.)
- bsaul 7y agoi’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic or if we just don’t live on the same planet :))
- falcolas 7y agoSeems like a useful feature with terrible discoverability and a lack of intuitiveness. Don Norman would not approve. ;)
- saagarjha 7y agoIt’s off by default, presumably because it takes a bit of effort to use effectively and is thus only useful to power users and those who need it for accessibility reasons.
- bathtub365 7y agoIt makes sense because you’re already familiar with the platform convention. It’s not intuitive. Space bar is a larger key and easier to reach, why isn’t it associated with the more “powerful” action?
- jtth 7y agoThat is how language works.
- briandear 7y agoThe space bar isn’t typically associated with a “big” action, but Enter is.
- saagarjha 7y agoIt’s not about “power”, it’s about the default key to perform an action being enter. So dialogs will run the default action, signified by the highlighted button, when you press enter. Space is intended for selecting the retargetable focused item.
- bathtub365 7y ago> Space is intended for selecting the retargetable focused item. Sure, but how is that intuitive?
- saagarjha 7y agoIt's standard UI for keyboard focus across most operating systems. At some point, you're just going to have to know that space selects the item that the focus ring is around, just like you know that tab switches between fields. (By the way, this is off by default so you don't invoke it accidentally without knowing how it works.)
- mdorazio 7y agoThis makes no sense whatsoever.
- fenomas 7y agoSure, I know that's the reason. There's a behind every UX decision, always, even the most stupendously bad ones. As such, the relevant question isn't "is it logical?", but rather "is having two UI focus targets so useful that it justifies cases where the user will lose data if they choose incorrectly between two superficially similar options?". And obviously that's down to opinion, but it seems like a pretty huge glaring no to me.
- ratww 7y agoThis is a feature that you have to go out of your way to enable, not the default status of the system. Either you or your IT department enabled it. Complaining about this is like complaining that the computer is reading the text out loud.
- fenomas 7y agoThere's a setting for having multiple focus targets? Where? I know there's a setting to prevent the keyboard from affecting dialogs at all, but obviously that's not what my comment was about.
- ratww 7y agoUsing tab/space to navigate dialog buttons (like you're describing in your comment) is not a default setting in macOS. You have to explicitly enable it. This is why it's complicated: it's not aimed at regular users, only at people who need it for accessibility reasons, or power users.
- fenomas 7y agoIt's not complicated, it's just implemented in such a way that it leads to bad UX! (One wonders: if the tab system didn't make two focuses, whether it wouldn't be intuitive enough to be on by default :D)
- mdrachuk 7y agoI love this feature. Regular users use mouse anyway, and power users have a shortcut instead of pressing tab several tabs to pick an option. Never made a mistake with it. Outlined button is activated by space and the filled button is activated by enter.
- hutattedonmyarm 7y agoI love that!
- saagarjha 7y agoThere’s a system behind it, which the same one that underlies all of “Full keyboard access” (which is of by default because it takes a bit of background information to master). When you press space, the item under the focus ring is selected; not only this, you can shift focus to other elements by pressing tab. So the ring acts as a visual indication of the item you will select. The filled-in blue button is there regardless of whether “Full keyboard access” is enabled and is intended for a sensible default so that pressing enter will do something useful. The “Cancel” action is usually mapped to escape. The focus ring, then, is usually set to the third option if there is any because that one wouldn’t be accessible via a keyboard key otherwise.
- fenomas 7y agoI know the reason for it! But the fact remains that it's two actions that are superficially the same (press an affirmative sort of key to trigger a highlighted button), and users who choose wrong lose data. That's... pretty much a one-sentence definition of bad UX :D The same system would make perfect sense if it only had one focus target. Dialog comes up, the "main" action is focused, tab cycles the focus, space/enter select it, and escape cancels the dialog. There'd be nothing to learn and nothing to remember.
- jmull 7y agoOh, I like that. Anyway, I thought this only happens when you opt-in by enabling tabbing between all types of controls (the default is that only edit controls can get focus). What you're describing here, I think, is that the "Don't Save" button has focus, which is why spacebar activates it. I hope this doesn't get nerffed. "Space => don't save, Enter => save" is part of my muscle memory now. Why would you enable focus on any control and then bang randomly on the keyboard anyway? If you aren't sure, leave the defaults as-is.