4 ms·

Recently, on my first software job (freelance) I messed this up. I had very little opportunity for contact with the client and they were slow and unreliable wit

Recently, on my first software job (freelance) I messed this up. I had very little opportunity for contact with the client and they were slow and unreliable with providing feedback. I could tell we would go over schedule if I didn’t produce a lot more work with each feedback cycle and I desperately wanted to do a good job so I let myself get weighed down with imagining things that they might think I was stupid for not including in each version. I am still unsure of how I should have approached this, but I know I messed up because at the end it was just way too much effort to fix bugs and add features, but I didn’t have the time to refactor. If anyone has advice, I would be grateful.

ximeng 7y ago
Send a spec of what’s reasonable given the budget and ask for approval before continuing. If you’re worried about bugs increasing the time consider adding a contingency to the budget. Pad everything out a bit. If this runs to multiple cycles, give them deadlines for feedback and push out the schedule if you don’t hear in time. Also if it’s your first time and you need the cash and experience, you can overdeliver a little. But if nobody is ever unhappy with you then be aware that you probably are overdelivering.
RobertRoberts 7y ago
1. Having such negative experience pushes you to make a harder, but better, decision in the future. Embrace this, it will happen repeatedly in different ways to you forever. It is the power base of personal change. 2. It's ok to make the client responsible for everything in writing. Especially if you do not have a deep committed relationship with them. I have clients I have worked with for over 15 years and they don't even need a quote from me to start work, and they send me a check for any reasonable amount up front. I have other clients where I spell out every single detail before I start and I do not deviate (add or subtract) from this list (for both our benefits) without written request from them and possibly a fee change. 3. I give away free work to many clients for many reasons. Some I don't even let them know, and others I make sure to put it on the invoice as a discount and rate. This way they know that I did the work, I did it for free, and they should recognize that. Also so that it's easy to charge for this work in the future. A lesson I learned hard was a few failures: 1. When to start: I did a bunch of work when a client said ok on the phone. When I invoiced he was mad because he didn't remember saying "ok" to start work. So, now I only start work with an email record, period. Even if it's annoying, even if it delays work, even if it makes the client annoyed. Every single time I ask "can you send me an email with the ok to start this work?" (or I prompt them with an email and they reply) Again, some clients verbal is ok, but only if I know them really really well. (ie, lots of previous work with them) 2. Extra work: I did a bunch of extra work/features on one project, and they wanted me to support the extra work also for free forever. (forever... sigh) And were angry when I said I couldn't... 3. Accountability for timelines: I had a project that every weekly meeting more features got added to the project. We spent half to over half our budget in meetings. (yes that bad) So I made sure to document all time spent on everything one month. The next month the lead project manager started cutting back the meetings instead of us devs complaining about not having enough time, the project manager _knew_ we didn't. 4. Specs and Expectations: Numerous times I "imagined" what the client actually wanted because I knew better than them. I would build something expecting to be paid for it (or at least appreciated) and it would be presented and the client would ask for it to be _removed_ from the project. This was the last kick in the teeth I would ever take from this, ever, ever again. Then later a new client (a state university) had visual layouts of interfaces given to me. I had learned some lessons about being screwed over before, so I was going to stick to their layouts no matter what. After it was built, they were _really_ pissed, and had the gaul to say to me: "Why did you build it this way?" And I said "Because it was how it was designed and specced out". Their reply? "That isn't what we wanted, you were supposed to make what we wanted." Unreal, but I won this argument hands down. No one can read minds and people who expect you to don't have a reasonable argument if you provide your experience on why you will never do this again. What can they say to you? My long term clients _never_ give me a hard time about anything extra I do, ever. I know them, they know me and they say "make something that solves this problem the best way you can", and we may tweak, but we respect each other and I fix my errors, and they pay for theirs and we meet happily in between no matter what. Also, I will no longer support software for free indefinitely, I say I offer free bug fixes for 6 months. Any new features is paid work. And support after 6 months will need to be negotiated. (all this depending on the client and project) I state as much as possible up front about everything (in writing) so there are as few arguments as possible (I hate arguments with clients they really suck). Doing this extra work kinda sucks sometimes, but the older I get the less I have to do this. The first time it saves your ass you will be happy. And as soon as you write it and hand it over you will have instant peace of mind. It may take you a few projects to get the handle of these ideas, but it's obvious you recognize there is a problem. But communication and clear expectations is the solution. I have also learned to say "Sorry, I meant to state this up front, I failed to do so, so I will give you X for free for my screw up, but I still need Y to do Z" Keep at it, what you are facing is normal, and your desire to do good work is commendable and will pay off in the long term in ways you can't imagine. Cheers!
- Noumenon72 7y ago
  That's interesting that extra work got you on the hook for extra support. Could you give a little detail about the extra feature you added that they asked you to remove? That's the sort of experience that I don't want to have myself.
  - RobertRoberts 7y ago
    Been in the industry over 20 years now, so I am sorry I for not being more specific with my examples here. (I learned this lesson many years ago) But here's some recollections. In the process of building something if I added say a color picker or a calendar date selector, but the client wanted just a text field. Then the color picker/calendar date selector has an issue with a really, really old browser and I have to spend time debugging it at their request. (again because "young and inexperienced" me can't explain it properly) My current self would just remove it, and/or explain it will cost extra. Soo 100% of the problems I described above are solved with mature communication that I learned the hard way. --Features requested vs features built-- A client will ask for 100 features up front, we build 10 and by the time we have an alpha, he bails on 90 of them, and adds 20 new ones. Of those we bail on half again. This is so normal that I now bring this up at meetings to help us prioritize development. I have had very long term clients ask me to remove something, then later ask "where did that feature go?", ha. I have to laugh at this, and I explain to them "I don't remove features without written request, if you want me to spend time looking up why this is removed (likely from an email) I can do that..." But they never have me do this. I have built extra templates/views, sorting features, even tools to add/remove things the client didn't want users to have access to, so I had to delete them. (no one would pay for a toggle to disable a feature they didn't request, hence the delete on my dime) One client even went so far as to say he didn't want _his_ clients (it was a CMS for web sites) to see how easy it was for him to build sites using the software. (his clients had access to the software for content maintenance) I had built an LMS (Learning Management System) with a group once (again, I was young and eager to impress) and I vaguely recall adding some features for working with quizzes or something, but because I had at least 2 PhD's on the team, that mightly protested something about "that isn't how that process is supposed to work...blah blah", that I had to remove it. I was the sole developer on a project with at least 2 designers and 6 (yes 6) project managers... ugh. They asked for the dumbest things and I would protest a little by building it a "smart" way that wouldn't piss off the users. But I had to revert everything and try to hack my way through making their overly complex visual designs work on web 1.0 _and_ support super old versions of IE at the same time... because project managers know what users want best. --Design alterations on the fly-- When CSS was still immature, and many layouts were very hard to build, I made some complicated things in a mapping program that insurance workers would use to map out and plan routes and such. Google maps was very new (so maybe 2006/7 ish) and we were building on top of this. And I would build layouts that I thought were ideal for users, because the client was just the business guy he left the design work up to me. And I had to rework the design a few times. Even after I had already specced everything out, and the client agreed. The lesson here was that the client blamed me for bad design decisions based on our poor communications. I had visually laid out the entire app before building it, but because we kept redesigning the visuals, doing a visual spec for each change was overwhelming. So I just made changes sorta willy-nilly based on meetings. And the client would come back and call a design decision a "bug" so he expected me to fix it for free... ugh. --Verbal change requests-- I had a client freak out on me (he had a temper and I was young and didn't have courage) claiming I had "told him to do X & Y" on a phone meeting 6 months prior. And therefore I was on the hook to fix it for free. I don't even recall what it was, but I remember the verbal bashing I got. This is where I learned to stand up for myself in a mature manner. I told him I don't recall saying that, and that I make a point to only make changes like he was describing in writing. And I pointed out that it was unfair and unreasonable to expect me to remember what I said on a phone call last month, let alone 6 months ago. And this is one the reasons I get do changes like this in writing, to avoid these exact conflicts. He was angry, and I weathered the storm, but it was a valuable lesson. Not everyone is nice and reasonable, but you may have to work with some people this for a time. And having a good set of communication and process rules keeps you from getting blamed for something that isn't your fault. This is getting long, but I didn't mean to imply "support" was some huge on-going thing for some giant feature I had spent days on. But more edge cases that the OP was bringing up, but seriously impacted my motivation on the work and affected my relationship with the client.

ximeng 7y ago

Send a spec of what’s reasonable given the budget and ask for approval before continuing. If you’re worried about bugs increasing the time consider adding a contingency to the budget. Pad everything out a bit. If this runs to multiple cycles, give them deadlines for feedback and push out the schedule if you don’t hear in time. Also if it’s your first time and you need the cash and experience, you can overdeliver a little. But if nobody is ever unhappy with you then be aware that you probably are overdelivering.

RobertRoberts 7y ago

1. Having such negative experience pushes you to make a harder, but better, decision in the future. Embrace this, it will happen repeatedly in different ways to you forever. It is the power base of personal change. 2. It's ok to make the client responsible for everything in writing. Especially if you do not have a deep committed relationship with them. I have clients I have worked with for over 15 years and they don't even need a quote from me to start work, and they send me a check for any reasonable amount up front. I have other clients where I spell out every single detail before I start and I do not deviate (add or subtract) from this list (for both our benefits) without written request from them and possibly a fee change. 3. I give away free work to many clients for many reasons. Some I don't even let them know, and others I make sure to put it on the invoice as a discount and rate. This way they know that I did the work, I did it for free, and they should recognize that. Also so that it's easy to charge for this work in the future. A lesson I learned hard was a few failures: 1. When to start: I did a bunch of work when a client said ok on the phone. When I invoiced he was mad because he didn't remember saying "ok" to start work. So, now I only start work with an email record, period. Even if it's annoying, even if it delays work, even if it makes the client annoyed. Every single time I ask "can you send me an email with the ok to start this work?" (or I prompt them with an email and they reply) Again, some clients verbal is ok, but only if I know them really really well. (ie, lots of previous work with them) 2. Extra work: I did a bunch of extra work/features on one project, and they wanted me to support the extra work also for free forever. (forever... sigh) And were angry when I said I couldn't... 3. Accountability for timelines: I had a project that every weekly meeting more features got added to the project. We spent half to over half our budget in meetings. (yes that bad) So I made sure to document all time spent on everything one month. The next month the lead project manager started cutting back the meetings instead of us devs complaining about not having enough time, the project manager _knew_ we didn't. 4. Specs and Expectations: Numerous times I "imagined" what the client actually wanted because I knew better than them. I would build something expecting to be paid for it (or at least appreciated) and it would be presented and the client would ask for it to be _removed_ from the project. This was the last kick in the teeth I would ever take from this, ever, ever again. Then later a new client (a state university) had visual layouts of interfaces given to me. I had learned some lessons about being screwed over before, so I was going to stick to their layouts no matter what. After it was built, they were _really_ pissed, and had the gaul to say to me: "Why did you build it this way?" And I said "Because it was how it was designed and specced out". Their reply? "That isn't what we wanted, you were supposed to make what we wanted." Unreal, but I won this argument hands down. No one can read minds and people who expect you to don't have a reasonable argument if you provide your experience on why you will never do this again. What can they say to you? My long term clients _never_ give me a hard time about anything extra I do, ever. I know them, they know me and they say "make something that solves this problem the best way you can", and we may tweak, but we respect each other and I fix my errors, and they pay for theirs and we meet happily in between no matter what. Also, I will no longer support software for free indefinitely, I say I offer free bug fixes for 6 months. Any new features is paid work. And support after 6 months will need to be negotiated. (all this depending on the client and project) I state as much as possible up front about everything (in writing) so there are as few arguments as possible (I hate arguments with clients they really suck). Doing this extra work kinda sucks sometimes, but the older I get the less I have to do this. The first time it saves your ass you will be happy. And as soon as you write it and hand it over you will have instant peace of mind. It may take you a few projects to get the handle of these ideas, but it's obvious you recognize there is a problem. But communication and clear expectations is the solution. I have also learned to say "Sorry, I meant to state this up front, I failed to do so, so I will give you X for free for my screw up, but I still need Y to do Z" Keep at it, what you are facing is normal, and your desire to do good work is commendable and will pay off in the long term in ways you can't imagine. Cheers!

Noumenon72 7y ago
That's interesting that extra work got you on the hook for extra support. Could you give a little detail about the extra feature you added that they asked you to remove? That's the sort of experience that I don't want to have myself.
- RobertRoberts 7y ago
  Been in the industry over 20 years now, so I am sorry I for not being more specific with my examples here. (I learned this lesson many years ago) But here's some recollections. In the process of building something if I added say a color picker or a calendar date selector, but the client wanted just a text field. Then the color picker/calendar date selector has an issue with a really, really old browser and I have to spend time debugging it at their request. (again because "young and inexperienced" me can't explain it properly) My current self would just remove it, and/or explain it will cost extra. Soo 100% of the problems I described above are solved with mature communication that I learned the hard way. --Features requested vs features built-- A client will ask for 100 features up front, we build 10 and by the time we have an alpha, he bails on 90 of them, and adds 20 new ones. Of those we bail on half again. This is so normal that I now bring this up at meetings to help us prioritize development. I have had very long term clients ask me to remove something, then later ask "where did that feature go?", ha. I have to laugh at this, and I explain to them "I don't remove features without written request, if you want me to spend time looking up why this is removed (likely from an email) I can do that..." But they never have me do this. I have built extra templates/views, sorting features, even tools to add/remove things the client didn't want users to have access to, so I had to delete them. (no one would pay for a toggle to disable a feature they didn't request, hence the delete on my dime) One client even went so far as to say he didn't want _his_ clients (it was a CMS for web sites) to see how easy it was for him to build sites using the software. (his clients had access to the software for content maintenance) I had built an LMS (Learning Management System) with a group once (again, I was young and eager to impress) and I vaguely recall adding some features for working with quizzes or something, but because I had at least 2 PhD's on the team, that mightly protested something about "that isn't how that process is supposed to work...blah blah", that I had to remove it. I was the sole developer on a project with at least 2 designers and 6 (yes 6) project managers... ugh. They asked for the dumbest things and I would protest a little by building it a "smart" way that wouldn't piss off the users. But I had to revert everything and try to hack my way through making their overly complex visual designs work on web 1.0 _and_ support super old versions of IE at the same time... because project managers know what users want best. --Design alterations on the fly-- When CSS was still immature, and many layouts were very hard to build, I made some complicated things in a mapping program that insurance workers would use to map out and plan routes and such. Google maps was very new (so maybe 2006/7 ish) and we were building on top of this. And I would build layouts that I thought were ideal for users, because the client was just the business guy he left the design work up to me. And I had to rework the design a few times. Even after I had already specced everything out, and the client agreed. The lesson here was that the client blamed me for bad design decisions based on our poor communications. I had visually laid out the entire app before building it, but because we kept redesigning the visuals, doing a visual spec for each change was overwhelming. So I just made changes sorta willy-nilly based on meetings. And the client would come back and call a design decision a "bug" so he expected me to fix it for free... ugh. --Verbal change requests-- I had a client freak out on me (he had a temper and I was young and didn't have courage) claiming I had "told him to do X & Y" on a phone meeting 6 months prior. And therefore I was on the hook to fix it for free. I don't even recall what it was, but I remember the verbal bashing I got. This is where I learned to stand up for myself in a mature manner. I told him I don't recall saying that, and that I make a point to only make changes like he was describing in writing. And I pointed out that it was unfair and unreasonable to expect me to remember what I said on a phone call last month, let alone 6 months ago. And this is one the reasons I get do changes like this in writing, to avoid these exact conflicts. He was angry, and I weathered the storm, but it was a valuable lesson. Not everyone is nice and reasonable, but you may have to work with some people this for a time. And having a good set of communication and process rules keeps you from getting blamed for something that isn't your fault. This is getting long, but I didn't mean to imply "support" was some huge on-going thing for some giant feature I had spent days on. But more edge cases that the OP was bringing up, but seriously impacted my motivation on the work and affected my relationship with the client.