7 ms·

Tax refund fraud is big business. These two are not very smart. The smarter criminals steal someone’s identity, file a fraudulent tax form using their identit

Tax refund fraud is big business. These two are not very smart. The smarter criminals steal someone’s identity, file a fraudulent tax form using their identity, steal the refund, and then let that poor soul deal with the IRS when it comes after them to get their money back. If you ever try to file and get a notice that you already filed, jump on it right away because you may have been targeted.

rhacker 7y ago
Maybe that IS what happened?
- m11a 7y ago
  Highly unlikely for a few reasons. 1. IRS and prosecution would've determined this and hence this case wouldn't've been brought forward. There's a case because both felt these were the ones that did it. Also, they were convicted, which is an even higher bar. 2. "Shortly after law enforcement left, despite warnings not to do so, K. Edmonson went to his bank to attempt to withdraw the funds from the account that received the fraudulent refund check." Not something an innocent person, a victim of identity fraud, does. 3. Cheques were sent to them, presumably to the address on file, which was probably also their actual residence. 4. "D. Edmonson deposited this tax refund check into her bank account and used the funds to purchase a luxury vehicle." I'd bet that vehicle was sitting in her driveway when law enforcement came.
onetimemanytime 7y ago
You'd better be a Mother Russia citizen and have a way to transfer funds there since there's no extradition. Otherwise they'll spend 100X your fraud to get you. But I guess, years pass by the time a human looks at it
- H8crilA 7y ago
  Transferring funds is easy, use Monero or just ship some gold in small pieces. And IRS is notably underfunded: https://www.accountingtoday.com/news/irsac-warns-about-irs-underfunding https://www.accountingtoday.com/news/irsac-warns-about-irs-u... My bet is that this type of activity will expand rather than contract.
  - m11a 7y ago
    I don't think you could buy $100M of Monero, or even Bitcoin, quickly without being noticed or causing market swings. There's not enough liquidity. And even if you could you'd have some issue cashing out that cryptocurrency into useful fiat afterwards. And eventually, assuming you were able to cash out $100M over some time, it wouldn't be worth $100M by the time you cashed it out.
    - rdl 7y ago
      You could buy $100m in bitcoin over a few weeks without causing >5% move in the price. (not as a single market order, obviously). Probably not even a 1% move in the price over 2 weeks.
      - m11a 7y ago
        Possibly. But you'd have to be using the larger, liquid exchanges with fiat support for these amounts. Surely you'd hit even the ID verified limits and they'd look into you manually if you're suddenly moving millions on their platform?
        Hydraulix989 7y ago
        I remember seeing limits for withdrawing but not depositing.
    - onetimemanytime 7y ago
      1.File fraudulent tax return 2. IRS Computer doesn't catch it (at least in real time) and sends you $12.21 million in refunds. In fact, they might not catch it for years. 3. That is YOUR money as far as Chase, BOFA or whatever bank is concerned. Now transfers might the problem since transferring millions to Russia or any country will get the three-letter agencies talking to each other (after the bank files suspicious activity reports.) What...he got a $12.21 Million in tax refunds...???
      - Hydraulix989 7y ago
- brianwawok 7y ago
  It took 100m of fraud to get caught. Would they have gotten away with 1m?
  - m11a 7y ago
    Possible. Tax agencies open up random investigations, as well, all the time. They can open an investigation 5-10 years back, depending on type of return, country, etc. There's a chance they could've had such a random investigation and been caught. There's also a chance no investigation would be opened and they could've gotten away with it. I don't know why they pushed it so hard, though. At that point you're begging for a targeted investigation.
    - shiftpgdn 7y ago
      The IRS generally will not go back more than 3 years, 6 years in extreme cases.
      - londons_explore 7y ago
        Unless they've already found something suspicious, in which case for certain things they can go back forever to rack up the criminal charges. That's part of why it's important to destroy documents when you are legally able to. If you keep those documents longer, they are a risk to you in case of a "every tax return ever" investigation. If all evidence has gone, as you were legally allowed to do, there is very little chance they'll convict you for that stuff. Even if you aren't a criminal, some innocuous things you do today might become illegal in the future as tax law is refined through case law.
        hawaiianbrah 7y ago
        Are you suggesting that things that are legal now, subsequently deemed illegal in the future, could then be retroactively brought against you? That sounds... incorrect.
        7y ago
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
stefan_ 7y ago
That would be the stupid variant. In Europe, tax refund fraud uses your real name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CumEx-Files https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CumEx-Files
nullc 7y ago
And the most successful tax refund scammers claim to have invented Bitcoin, claim to have spend a hundred million buying a non-existent supercomputer, then claim $54 million in tax rebates related to their "research and development". When the authorities catch on, they then pivot to pre-selling their embargoed "bitcoin fortune" in a advanced fee fraud[2] and use the victims to pay a settlement with the tax authority. Which in AU, like the US, is surprisingly forgiving of outright fraud so long as you give them money. Best of all, because printing obviously false speculation about Bitcoin's creator sells more paper than a story about an audacious but fundamentally boring conman, even the media barely takes notice of the crime. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4htw3t/how_to_steal_54_millions_of_dollar_from_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4htw3t/how_to_stea... [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4cdsna/craig_wright_nigerian_prince_and_other_unlikely/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4cdsna/craig_wrigh...
- lisawright 7y ago
  @nullc Stop dragging my brother into this drama. He did not commit tax fraud, and in his life there are problems that cannot be explained by conventional means. He invented bitcoin. Media advertises him as a scammer, but I know from the bottom of my heart - he is not a fraud at all. You need to take false positives into account. He bought the bitcoin.org domain from his credit card which will be proven in the court near soon.
  - mileycyrusXOXO 7y ago
    > He invented bitcoin. Sorry to break it to you, but he didn't. A claim as profound as that without any substance won't get you very far here.
    - duelingjello 7y ago
      Tech vague equivalent of people claiming to be Navy SEALs (stolen valor).
  - nullc 7y ago

rhacker 7y ago

Maybe that IS what happened?

m11a 7y ago
Highly unlikely for a few reasons. 1. IRS and prosecution would've determined this and hence this case wouldn't've been brought forward. There's a case because both felt these were the ones that did it. Also, they were convicted, which is an even higher bar. 2. "Shortly after law enforcement left, despite warnings not to do so, K. Edmonson went to his bank to attempt to withdraw the funds from the account that received the fraudulent refund check." Not something an innocent person, a victim of identity fraud, does. 3. Cheques were sent to them, presumably to the address on file, which was probably also their actual residence. 4. "D. Edmonson deposited this tax refund check into her bank account and used the funds to purchase a luxury vehicle." I'd bet that vehicle was sitting in her driveway when law enforcement came.

onetimemanytime 7y ago

You'd better be a Mother Russia citizen and have a way to transfer funds there since there's no extradition. Otherwise they'll spend 100X your fraud to get you. But I guess, years pass by the time a human looks at it

H8crilA 7y ago
Transferring funds is easy, use Monero or just ship some gold in small pieces. And IRS is notably underfunded: https://www.accountingtoday.com/news/irsac-warns-about-irs-underfunding https://www.accountingtoday.com/news/irsac-warns-about-irs-u... My bet is that this type of activity will expand rather than contract.
- m11a 7y ago
  I don't think you could buy $100M of Monero, or even Bitcoin, quickly without being noticed or causing market swings. There's not enough liquidity. And even if you could you'd have some issue cashing out that cryptocurrency into useful fiat afterwards. And eventually, assuming you were able to cash out $100M over some time, it wouldn't be worth $100M by the time you cashed it out.
  - rdl 7y ago
    You could buy $100m in bitcoin over a few weeks without causing >5% move in the price. (not as a single market order, obviously). Probably not even a 1% move in the price over 2 weeks.
    - m11a 7y ago
      Possibly. But you'd have to be using the larger, liquid exchanges with fiat support for these amounts. Surely you'd hit even the ID verified limits and they'd look into you manually if you're suddenly moving millions on their platform?
      - Hydraulix989 7y ago
        I remember seeing limits for withdrawing but not depositing.
  - onetimemanytime 7y ago
    1.File fraudulent tax return 2. IRS Computer doesn't catch it (at least in real time) and sends you $12.21 million in refunds. In fact, they might not catch it for years. 3. That is YOUR money as far as Chase, BOFA or whatever bank is concerned. Now transfers might the problem since transferring millions to Russia or any country will get the three-letter agencies talking to each other (after the bank files suspicious activity reports.) What...he got a $12.21 Million in tax refunds...???
    - Hydraulix989 7y ago
brianwawok 7y ago
It took 100m of fraud to get caught. Would they have gotten away with 1m?
- m11a 7y ago
  Possible. Tax agencies open up random investigations, as well, all the time. They can open an investigation 5-10 years back, depending on type of return, country, etc. There's a chance they could've had such a random investigation and been caught. There's also a chance no investigation would be opened and they could've gotten away with it. I don't know why they pushed it so hard, though. At that point you're begging for a targeted investigation.
  - shiftpgdn 7y ago
    The IRS generally will not go back more than 3 years, 6 years in extreme cases.
    - londons_explore 7y ago
      Unless they've already found something suspicious, in which case for certain things they can go back forever to rack up the criminal charges. That's part of why it's important to destroy documents when you are legally able to. If you keep those documents longer, they are a risk to you in case of a "every tax return ever" investigation. If all evidence has gone, as you were legally allowed to do, there is very little chance they'll convict you for that stuff. Even if you aren't a criminal, some innocuous things you do today might become illegal in the future as tax law is refined through case law.
      - hawaiianbrah 7y ago
        Are you suggesting that things that are legal now, subsequently deemed illegal in the future, could then be retroactively brought against you? That sounds... incorrect.
        7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

stefan_ 7y ago

That would be the stupid variant. In Europe, tax refund fraud uses your real name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CumEx-Files https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CumEx-Files

nullc 7y ago

And the most successful tax refund scammers claim to have invented Bitcoin, claim to have spend a hundred million buying a non-existent supercomputer, then claim $54 million in tax rebates related to their "research and development". When the authorities catch on, they then pivot to pre-selling their embargoed "bitcoin fortune" in a advanced fee fraud[2] and use the victims to pay a settlement with the tax authority. Which in AU, like the US, is surprisingly forgiving of outright fraud so long as you give them money. Best of all, because printing obviously false speculation about Bitcoin's creator sells more paper than a story about an audacious but fundamentally boring conman, even the media barely takes notice of the crime. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4htw3t/how_to_steal_54_millions_of_dollar_from_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4htw3t/how_to_stea... [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4cdsna/craig_wright_nigerian_prince_and_other_unlikely/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4cdsna/craig_wrigh...

lisawright 7y ago
@nullc Stop dragging my brother into this drama. He did not commit tax fraud, and in his life there are problems that cannot be explained by conventional means. He invented bitcoin. Media advertises him as a scammer, but I know from the bottom of my heart - he is not a fraud at all. You need to take false positives into account. He bought the bitcoin.org domain from his credit card which will be proven in the court near soon.
- mileycyrusXOXO 7y ago
  > He invented bitcoin. Sorry to break it to you, but he didn't. A claim as profound as that without any substance won't get you very far here.
  - duelingjello 7y ago
    Tech vague equivalent of people claiming to be Navy SEALs (stolen valor).
- nullc 7y ago