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> the journalists present this story as Russia's voluntary step towards isolating itself from the global internet. I am not sure why. Some potential benefits t

> the journalists present this story as Russia's voluntary step towards isolating itself from the global internet. I am not sure why. Some potential benefits to Russia: 1. Thwart cyber attacks 2. Control information 3. Halt foreign online payments There are of course downsides, but I think the original premise was security in the event of war / aggression.

azangru 7y ago
> but I think the original premise was security in the event of war / aggression. That was my understanding as well.
- jethro_tell 7y ago
  which is easy to declare without processes as needed, such as during social unrest. . ..
  - azangru 7y ago
    Oh, during a social unrest in Egypt in 2011 the government famously shut down the internet. Didn't help them much :-) I think the main concern of the Russian internet users is to get isolated from the rest of the internet indefinitely during peace time, in a way of China or North Korea. I am not sure we are seeing signs that the Russian government intends to go that far yet.
    - FpUser 7y ago
      When all that mess with Russia/Ukraine had started the West was openly contemplating disconnecting Russia from the international payment services. That had lead Russia to develop it's own. The Internet is a vital infrastructure element. Leaving the risk of potential disruption to some US congressmen's whims is not a very wise choice. Of course it can be used with bad intentions as well but so can anything else. I think I've already mentioned this in my older post and it was downvoted eagerly.
      - conistonwater 7y ago
        > the West was openly contemplating disconnecting Russia from the international payment services This is a claim made by the Russian government with little actual support as far as I know. It comes up every once in a while when the issue is mentioned, and is usually uncritically accepted.
        macintux 7y ago
        > In September 2014, the European Parliament urged member states to consider excluding Russia from SWIFT as part of its sanctions. https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/01/27/russia-to-retaliate-if-banks-given-swift-kick/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/01/27/russia-to-... I don't know that statement's veracity, but it seems credible.
        conistonwater 7y ago
        I now looked a bit into it, thanks for the link. I think it would make a big difference if that was a credible threat by the parliament, or if it was some random grandstanding by a politician. Given that the idea was not discussed again (all references to the issue are to the same resolution, it seems, AFAICT), it is quite likely that (a) the idea was not serious, and (b) it gave the Russian government an excuse. If it's being used as an excuse then there's no point in taking it as a serious threat to Russian national security the way some people do. The Russian government is very fond of portraying itself as a victim of the West, so some skepticism is warranted.
        FpUser 7y ago
        "...it is quite likely that (a) the idea was not serious, and (b) it gave the Russian government an excuse..." It looks like you are the one looking for excuse. Following your logic Russia should really wait until threats become very serious then be hit in the face and only then react? I think you're asking a for bit too much Kumbaya.
        FpUser 7y ago
    - everdev 7y ago
      > in Egypt in 2011 the government famously shut down the internet The news is that they can now isolate their Internet domestically and run a Russia-only WWW. They presumably could have shut it off completely from Day 1.
      - shadowgovt 7y ago
        Are there services Russians use daily that would not be available on a Russia only WWW? The utility of the web isn't the protocols it technology employed; it's the content.
        everdev 7y ago
        I would assume any foreign website (Twitter, PayPal, Facebook, etc.) would need to be co-located within Russia to continue to operate. Even then, it would be cutoff from updating or querying any foreign databases. I can imagine online banking with foreign entities would become a problem as well.
        tanyatik 7y ago
        YouTube would be one prominent example; Wikipedia, Google search & hosting, Twitter are all popular. There are also media of a more liberal nature who can’t comfortably host in RuNet / being registered as Russian companies, so they exist outside. meduza.io being a prominent example
        vbezhenar 7y ago
        I can't really think of any outside of youtube. There's local search engine (Yandex and some lesser ones), there's local social website (vkontakte). Russians don't talk English well and mostly use Russian websites which are, obviously, mostly hosted inside Russia. Wikipedia is another example, but, funny enough, Russian government wants to develop a curated alternative and already have money to fund it (basically web hosted encyclopedia).
3pt14159 7y ago
> 1. Thwart cyber attacks By whom? State actors can just launch attacks from computers that have both a Russian internet link and a link up to a internet providing satellite, no?
- everdev 7y ago
  No security is full proof, but they call it "hardening the target" when you reduce your attack surface.
  - staticautomatic 7y ago
    I think the word you're looking for is "foolproof"
  - Nasrudith 7y ago
    Of course security is an obvious pretense for control. The way you actually reduce attack surface is to take the critical pieces off of it and minimize the paths to be watched, not the whole system. That would be like ensuring it is possible to close off all of the highways into Washington DC to response time for the three federal branches. If it was actually that damn important they would make and use secure tunnels. The only added benefit is an excuse to shut out protesters. Not to mention mere independence isn't everything for system functionalities. Going to muscle powered factories to remove logistical dependence on power would be an obviously stupid move for example because the performance is so much worse. It is "selling ceramic knives that cannot be sharpened as never needing it" marketing deception of trying to cast a flaw as a strength.
    - irascible 7y ago
      This is the equivalent of putting on armor before going to war.
    - microcolonel 7y ago
      > Of course security is an obvious pretense for control. Russia doesn't need pretense for control.
viraptor 7y ago
> 3. Halt foreign online payments That is extremely unlikely to happen. Payments, banking, investment will be always connected, or placed abroad in the required way. At least for important enough transactions - probably not Amazon, but stock trades...
- capdeck 7y ago
  >> 3. Halt foreign online payments > That is extremely unlikely to happen. That's what very much has already happened. Visa and MasterCard pulled their services a few years ago after another set of US sanctions. Also, if you are a business and using SWIFT to transact - US has the final say what you can and can not do. So now Russia has it's own payment card system MiR and working with China, India and even Iran on alternative to SWIFT. I think it was a mistake for US to retract payment services. A smaller country may be severely affected by it indeed, but not a country of the size of Russia, China or India. Now if payment networks were pulled, then what is next? Internet would be the logical follow-up. Hence the testing. It all makes perfect sense when you look at it from Rissia's side.
  - dmitrykan 7y ago
    > Visa and MasterCard pulled their services a few years ago after another set of US sanctions. When did that happen? I’ve been paying with a Master Card just recently in Russia.
  - varjag 7y ago
    Visa and MasterCard services are available in Russia. They do not operate in Russian occupied Crimea.
int_19h 7y ago
Whenever Russia talks about "national security", you have to understand that this is a country that considers e.g. NGOs that receive any foreign funding (even non-state!) to be an infringement of said security.

azangru 7y ago

> but I think the original premise was security in the event of war / aggression. That was my understanding as well.

jethro_tell 7y ago
which is easy to declare without processes as needed, such as during social unrest. . ..
- azangru 7y ago
  Oh, during a social unrest in Egypt in 2011 the government famously shut down the internet. Didn't help them much :-) I think the main concern of the Russian internet users is to get isolated from the rest of the internet indefinitely during peace time, in a way of China or North Korea. I am not sure we are seeing signs that the Russian government intends to go that far yet.
  - FpUser 7y ago
    When all that mess with Russia/Ukraine had started the West was openly contemplating disconnecting Russia from the international payment services. That had lead Russia to develop it's own. The Internet is a vital infrastructure element. Leaving the risk of potential disruption to some US congressmen's whims is not a very wise choice. Of course it can be used with bad intentions as well but so can anything else. I think I've already mentioned this in my older post and it was downvoted eagerly.
    - conistonwater 7y ago
      > the West was openly contemplating disconnecting Russia from the international payment services This is a claim made by the Russian government with little actual support as far as I know. It comes up every once in a while when the issue is mentioned, and is usually uncritically accepted.
      - macintux 7y ago
        > In September 2014, the European Parliament urged member states to consider excluding Russia from SWIFT as part of its sanctions. https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/01/27/russia-to-retaliate-if-banks-given-swift-kick/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/01/27/russia-to-... I don't know that statement's veracity, but it seems credible.
        conistonwater 7y ago
        I now looked a bit into it, thanks for the link. I think it would make a big difference if that was a credible threat by the parliament, or if it was some random grandstanding by a politician. Given that the idea was not discussed again (all references to the issue are to the same resolution, it seems, AFAICT), it is quite likely that (a) the idea was not serious, and (b) it gave the Russian government an excuse. If it's being used as an excuse then there's no point in taking it as a serious threat to Russian national security the way some people do. The Russian government is very fond of portraying itself as a victim of the West, so some skepticism is warranted.
        FpUser 7y ago
        "...it is quite likely that (a) the idea was not serious, and (b) it gave the Russian government an excuse..." It looks like you are the one looking for excuse. Following your logic Russia should really wait until threats become very serious then be hit in the face and only then react? I think you're asking a for bit too much Kumbaya.
      - FpUser 7y ago
  - everdev 7y ago
    > in Egypt in 2011 the government famously shut down the internet The news is that they can now isolate their Internet domestically and run a Russia-only WWW. They presumably could have shut it off completely from Day 1.
    - shadowgovt 7y ago
      Are there services Russians use daily that would not be available on a Russia only WWW? The utility of the web isn't the protocols it technology employed; it's the content.
      - everdev 7y ago
        I would assume any foreign website (Twitter, PayPal, Facebook, etc.) would need to be co-located within Russia to continue to operate. Even then, it would be cutoff from updating or querying any foreign databases. I can imagine online banking with foreign entities would become a problem as well.
      - tanyatik 7y ago
        YouTube would be one prominent example; Wikipedia, Google search & hosting, Twitter are all popular. There are also media of a more liberal nature who can’t comfortably host in RuNet / being registered as Russian companies, so they exist outside. meduza.io being a prominent example
      - vbezhenar 7y ago
        I can't really think of any outside of youtube. There's local search engine (Yandex and some lesser ones), there's local social website (vkontakte). Russians don't talk English well and mostly use Russian websites which are, obviously, mostly hosted inside Russia. Wikipedia is another example, but, funny enough, Russian government wants to develop a curated alternative and already have money to fund it (basically web hosted encyclopedia).

3pt14159 7y ago

> 1. Thwart cyber attacks By whom? State actors can just launch attacks from computers that have both a Russian internet link and a link up to a internet providing satellite, no?

everdev 7y ago
No security is full proof, but they call it "hardening the target" when you reduce your attack surface.
- staticautomatic 7y ago
  I think the word you're looking for is "foolproof"
- Nasrudith 7y ago
  Of course security is an obvious pretense for control. The way you actually reduce attack surface is to take the critical pieces off of it and minimize the paths to be watched, not the whole system. That would be like ensuring it is possible to close off all of the highways into Washington DC to response time for the three federal branches. If it was actually that damn important they would make and use secure tunnels. The only added benefit is an excuse to shut out protesters. Not to mention mere independence isn't everything for system functionalities. Going to muscle powered factories to remove logistical dependence on power would be an obviously stupid move for example because the performance is so much worse. It is "selling ceramic knives that cannot be sharpened as never needing it" marketing deception of trying to cast a flaw as a strength.
  - irascible 7y ago
    This is the equivalent of putting on armor before going to war.
  - microcolonel 7y ago
    > Of course security is an obvious pretense for control. Russia doesn't need pretense for control.

viraptor 7y ago

> 3. Halt foreign online payments That is extremely unlikely to happen. Payments, banking, investment will be always connected, or placed abroad in the required way. At least for important enough transactions - probably not Amazon, but stock trades...

capdeck 7y ago
>> 3. Halt foreign online payments > That is extremely unlikely to happen. That's what very much has already happened. Visa and MasterCard pulled their services a few years ago after another set of US sanctions. Also, if you are a business and using SWIFT to transact - US has the final say what you can and can not do. So now Russia has it's own payment card system MiR and working with China, India and even Iran on alternative to SWIFT. I think it was a mistake for US to retract payment services. A smaller country may be severely affected by it indeed, but not a country of the size of Russia, China or India. Now if payment networks were pulled, then what is next? Internet would be the logical follow-up. Hence the testing. It all makes perfect sense when you look at it from Rissia's side.
- dmitrykan 7y ago
  > Visa and MasterCard pulled their services a few years ago after another set of US sanctions. When did that happen? I’ve been paying with a Master Card just recently in Russia.
- varjag 7y ago
  Visa and MasterCard services are available in Russia. They do not operate in Russian occupied Crimea.

int_19h 7y ago

Whenever Russia talks about "national security", you have to understand that this is a country that considers e.g. NGOs that receive any foreign funding (even non-state!) to be an infringement of said security.