4 ms·

This reminds me of a book I read a while back. I think it was called The origin of myth or something like that. It defined a myth as something that people know

This reminds me of a book I read a while back. I think it was called The origin of myth or something like that. It defined a myth as something that people know isn’t true, but choose to believe it is, and act as if it is, because it’s beneficial to them or society. But then some people forget that they’re only meant to be pretending it’s true and start to really believe it, and very quickly you’ve got religion.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
You say all that like it's always bad thing, but as Pratchett once wrote "You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?".
- Jarwain 7y ago
  The full quote: "You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable." REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE. "Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—" YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES. "So we can believe the big ones?" YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING. "They're not the same at all!" YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED. "Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—" MY POINT EXACTLY. Terry Pratchett, Hogfather
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
    You didn't even finish the quote to the point I was quoting. Here's the rest of it: She tried to assemble her thoughts. THERE IS A PLACE WHERE TWO GALAXIES HAVE BEEN COLLIDING FOR A MILLION YEARS, said Death, apropos of nothing. DON’T TRY TO TELL ME THAT’S RIGHT. “Yes, but people don’t think about that,” said Susan. “Somewhere there was a bed…” CORRECT. STARS EXPLODE, WORLDS COLLIDE, THERE’S HARDLY ANYWHERE IN THE UNIVERSE WHERE HUMANS CAN LIVE WITHOUT BEING FROZEN OR FRIED, AND YET YOU BELIEVE THAT A…A BED IS A NORMAL THING. IT IS THE MOST AMAZING TALENT. “Talent?” OH, YES. A VERY SPECIAL KIND OF STUPIDITY. YOU THINK THE WHOLE UNIVERSE IS INSIDE YOUR HEADS. “You make us sound mad,” said Susan. A nice warm bed… NO. YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN’T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME? said Death”
    - mistermann 7y ago
      I absolutely love these kinds of subversive ideas, reminds me of: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
- jonplackett 7y ago
  Isn't this conflating a belief with imagination though? Creating and inventing anything (societies, art, science, technology, relationships, whatever) obviously do require belief that they will work or are possible before they can be created. But believing the earth was created in 7 days by a magical being will not make it so no matter how many people believe it.
  - mistermann 7y ago
    Likewise, believing all Christians take scripture literally will not make it so no matter how many people believe it.
magicsmoke 7y ago
Sounds very similar to Yuval Noah Harari's books. A big part of his thesis is that humans became the dominant species of humanoids because of our ability to work collectively in massive social groups by coordinating our behavior with stories that aren't objectively true.
- ismail 7y ago
  I would not be surprised if both these books are referring to the same thing, from similar sources just using different ways to describe the same concept. I have watched a talk by Yuval Noah Harari, and read a few blog posts about his idea of “fictions”. I have not read the book so I stand to be corrected. comments below are related to “fiction”. This is a foundation of his thesis. The concept of “fiction” as described in the Talk(and book?) appears to have a long history, but called by different names. I have traced some of this thinking to early 1900’s, which itself appears to based on work from the 1700’s, and maybe even further back. It seems to be a common idea made palatable for mass consumption.
mistermann 7y ago
> and very quickly you’ve got religion Or illusions of free will, rationality, etc
- jonplackett 7y ago
  Free will is the fundamental (IMHO incorrect) pillar of basically all religion and society. But life would be pretty hard to live if you didn't believe in it just a little bit.
  - mistermann 7y ago
    Sam Harris and many other atheists are hardcore believers. Similarly, many hardcore atheists have deep faith in the rationality of their beliefs and perception of reality.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago

You say all that like it's always bad thing, but as Pratchett once wrote "You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?".

Jarwain 7y ago
The full quote: "You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable." REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE. "Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—" YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES. "So we can believe the big ones?" YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING. "They're not the same at all!" YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED. "Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—" MY POINT EXACTLY. Terry Pratchett, Hogfather
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  You didn't even finish the quote to the point I was quoting. Here's the rest of it: She tried to assemble her thoughts. THERE IS A PLACE WHERE TWO GALAXIES HAVE BEEN COLLIDING FOR A MILLION YEARS, said Death, apropos of nothing. DON’T TRY TO TELL ME THAT’S RIGHT. “Yes, but people don’t think about that,” said Susan. “Somewhere there was a bed…” CORRECT. STARS EXPLODE, WORLDS COLLIDE, THERE’S HARDLY ANYWHERE IN THE UNIVERSE WHERE HUMANS CAN LIVE WITHOUT BEING FROZEN OR FRIED, AND YET YOU BELIEVE THAT A…A BED IS A NORMAL THING. IT IS THE MOST AMAZING TALENT. “Talent?” OH, YES. A VERY SPECIAL KIND OF STUPIDITY. YOU THINK THE WHOLE UNIVERSE IS INSIDE YOUR HEADS. “You make us sound mad,” said Susan. A nice warm bed… NO. YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN’T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME? said Death”
  - mistermann 7y ago
    I absolutely love these kinds of subversive ideas, reminds me of: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
jonplackett 7y ago
Isn't this conflating a belief with imagination though? Creating and inventing anything (societies, art, science, technology, relationships, whatever) obviously do require belief that they will work or are possible before they can be created. But believing the earth was created in 7 days by a magical being will not make it so no matter how many people believe it.
- mistermann 7y ago
  Likewise, believing all Christians take scripture literally will not make it so no matter how many people believe it.

magicsmoke 7y ago

Sounds very similar to Yuval Noah Harari's books. A big part of his thesis is that humans became the dominant species of humanoids because of our ability to work collectively in massive social groups by coordinating our behavior with stories that aren't objectively true.

ismail 7y ago
I would not be surprised if both these books are referring to the same thing, from similar sources just using different ways to describe the same concept. I have watched a talk by Yuval Noah Harari, and read a few blog posts about his idea of “fictions”. I have not read the book so I stand to be corrected. comments below are related to “fiction”. This is a foundation of his thesis. The concept of “fiction” as described in the Talk(and book?) appears to have a long history, but called by different names. I have traced some of this thinking to early 1900’s, which itself appears to based on work from the 1700’s, and maybe even further back. It seems to be a common idea made palatable for mass consumption.

mistermann 7y ago

> and very quickly you’ve got religion Or illusions of free will, rationality, etc

jonplackett 7y ago
Free will is the fundamental (IMHO incorrect) pillar of basically all religion and society. But life would be pretty hard to live if you didn't believe in it just a little bit.
- mistermann 7y ago
  Sam Harris and many other atheists are hardcore believers. Similarly, many hardcore atheists have deep faith in the rationality of their beliefs and perception of reality.