5 ms·

If we follow that route, Spanish, Portuguese or Italians shouldn't be allowed to work in Germany... Germans shouldn't be allowed to work in Switzerland, etc...

by zerr 7y ago

If we follow that route, Spanish, Portuguese or Italians shouldn't be allowed to work in Germany... Germans shouldn't be allowed to work in Switzerland, etc... Also, there are plenty of 50K-70K tech jobs in US - not everyone works in FAANG or lives in Bay Area.

blue_box 7y ago
Companies in Germany already have branches in those countries and they are paying almost half for the same job.
mping 7y ago
Besides, in tech, most of the time you get what you payed for. So if you lowball you will probably get low talent. This is a global market, so you can also grab US jobs for half the pay and make alot of money anyway.
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  Depends, my ex employer got a really good deal on some workers from China who are working like crazy even on overtime, being grateful to just be in Europe even on below market salaries so it worked for him hence his focus to just recruit from there exclusively. Most tech companies already have enough thinkers, to scale fast they just need more doers that execute orders quickly without rocking the boat or challenging the status quo.
ChuckNorris89 7y ago
You're not correct. EU citizens should be allowed to work anywhere in EU member states. That's fine, it's one of the founding principles of EU membership. The problem is when EU companies have virtually no restrictions on hiring people outside the EU putting even more downward pressure on local salaries in high COL areas.
- hos234 7y ago
  Companies will outsource, move development centers elsewhere etc etc. Visa restrictions alone aren't going to save anyones job. The world is too competitive.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
    The whole fear of outsourcing is a myth companies use to deregulate immigration and it needs to stop being used as fear mongering to justify lax regulations. If outsourcing was so good why hasn't all of SV packed and moved abroad already to cheap countries or even to cheaper states in the US instead of offering insane salaries at home? Companies stay in the west because of the ecosystem comprised of stable government, generous financing and skilled workforce.
    - hos234 7y ago
      If Airbus wants to hire 300 software engineers, good luck finding them in reasonable time periods in Germany or France. Local small niche firms can survive. The larger you get the longer it takes to hit hiring goal. You will understand that only after you spend time actually hiring people. Telling the boss well I can't do this locally in 3 months, I need 6 plus a budget to relocate people from other EU locations will just get you laughed out of the room for the simple reason someone else in the org has already done it through outsourcing and importing people. > Companies stay in the west because of the ecosystem comprised of stable government, financing and skilled workforce This is probably 10-15 year old rhetoric that isnt true anymore. There are now dozens of hubs worldwide that make it simple to hire large number of people fast. Just make a trip and look at the scale at which they function. The EU is doing the right thing by trying to pull more people in.
      - pnako 7y ago
        > If Airbus wants to hire 300 software engineers, good luck finding them in reasonable time periods in Germany or France. Are you serious? Countries with traditions of engineering going back centuries, with some of the best schools in the field, will have trouble to find... 300 software engineers?
- zerr 7y ago
  EU is just a yet another set of deals. Switzerland is not even a EU member - it has a yet another set of deals. There are reasons for such deals as with Blue card deals or similar. Preferring one deal over another just because of nationality or race is wrong.
  - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
    Hiring restrictions to the EU exclusively have nothing to do with race but they do with nationality and there's nothing wrong with that. As an EU national and EU taxpayer for decades, I expect to be a first class citizen of my region and the governing bodies to prioritize my well being first as much as I expect the US or Chinese or Indian governments to prioritize the well being of thier citizens first as opposed to mine. Is it wrong if I can't get a work visa for SV? Or China? Or India?
    - zerr 7y ago
      > Is it a problem of race/nationality It is, when you're saying that it is fine for Romanians or Polish to dump the market, but not Indians.
      - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
        You see, now you're making it a problem of nationality. EU membership allows free movement of capital, goods and workforce between EU states with equal rights. Singling out Romania and Poland means you have a personal problem with these nationalities. Don't like it? Vote your country leaving the EU. Oh, and FYI, Romanian tech salaries are some of the highest in EU where new grads can earn €2k NET due to a hot market and low taxes so your point about wage dumping doesn't hold.
        negamax 7y ago
        That's still not good enough as compared to Zurich or Amsterdam. Or many other cities. Why stop at tech. Many Romanians and other poor EU immigrants move across Europe for all kind of jobs. I don't think you have thought this through and not realizing or outright ignoring xenophobia in your arguments.
- aclsid 7y ago
  I think more of an issue with who they hire it should be more about the minimum amount they are allowed to pay. That will tilt the scale in favor of home players since they already know the language, local customs, work culture, etc.
xilni 7y ago
In the DC metro area: Starter salaries for new software development or RE/VR grads, straight out of college with 1-2 summer internships under their belt, is 80-100k. These are not your I got poached by FAANGs MIT or Stanford grads we're talking about, just regular UMD/Mason, etc... working at cyber contractors or small-medium size tech companies. One of my coworkers used to live her dream of living in Amsterdam doing dev work for a year, while the experience was very relaxed and it was a fun city, she said she couldn't justify getting paid 30-40k a year in Europe when the pay was triple here.

by zerr 7y ago

blue_box 7y ago

Companies in Germany already have branches in those countries and they are paying almost half for the same job.

mping 7y ago

Besides, in tech, most of the time you get what you payed for. So if you lowball you will probably get low talent. This is a global market, so you can also grab US jobs for half the pay and make alot of money anyway.

ChuckNorris89 7y ago
Depends, my ex employer got a really good deal on some workers from China who are working like crazy even on overtime, being grateful to just be in Europe even on below market salaries so it worked for him hence his focus to just recruit from there exclusively. Most tech companies already have enough thinkers, to scale fast they just need more doers that execute orders quickly without rocking the boat or challenging the status quo.

ChuckNorris89 7y ago

You're not correct. EU citizens should be allowed to work anywhere in EU member states. That's fine, it's one of the founding principles of EU membership. The problem is when EU companies have virtually no restrictions on hiring people outside the EU putting even more downward pressure on local salaries in high COL areas.

hos234 7y ago
Companies will outsource, move development centers elsewhere etc etc. Visa restrictions alone aren't going to save anyones job. The world is too competitive.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  The whole fear of outsourcing is a myth companies use to deregulate immigration and it needs to stop being used as fear mongering to justify lax regulations. If outsourcing was so good why hasn't all of SV packed and moved abroad already to cheap countries or even to cheaper states in the US instead of offering insane salaries at home? Companies stay in the west because of the ecosystem comprised of stable government, generous financing and skilled workforce.
  - hos234 7y ago
    If Airbus wants to hire 300 software engineers, good luck finding them in reasonable time periods in Germany or France. Local small niche firms can survive. The larger you get the longer it takes to hit hiring goal. You will understand that only after you spend time actually hiring people. Telling the boss well I can't do this locally in 3 months, I need 6 plus a budget to relocate people from other EU locations will just get you laughed out of the room for the simple reason someone else in the org has already done it through outsourcing and importing people. > Companies stay in the west because of the ecosystem comprised of stable government, financing and skilled workforce This is probably 10-15 year old rhetoric that isnt true anymore. There are now dozens of hubs worldwide that make it simple to hire large number of people fast. Just make a trip and look at the scale at which they function. The EU is doing the right thing by trying to pull more people in.
    - pnako 7y ago
      > If Airbus wants to hire 300 software engineers, good luck finding them in reasonable time periods in Germany or France. Are you serious? Countries with traditions of engineering going back centuries, with some of the best schools in the field, will have trouble to find... 300 software engineers?
zerr 7y ago
EU is just a yet another set of deals. Switzerland is not even a EU member - it has a yet another set of deals. There are reasons for such deals as with Blue card deals or similar. Preferring one deal over another just because of nationality or race is wrong.
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  Hiring restrictions to the EU exclusively have nothing to do with race but they do with nationality and there's nothing wrong with that. As an EU national and EU taxpayer for decades, I expect to be a first class citizen of my region and the governing bodies to prioritize my well being first as much as I expect the US or Chinese or Indian governments to prioritize the well being of thier citizens first as opposed to mine. Is it wrong if I can't get a work visa for SV? Or China? Or India?
  - zerr 7y ago
    > Is it a problem of race/nationality It is, when you're saying that it is fine for Romanians or Polish to dump the market, but not Indians.
    - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
      You see, now you're making it a problem of nationality. EU membership allows free movement of capital, goods and workforce between EU states with equal rights. Singling out Romania and Poland means you have a personal problem with these nationalities. Don't like it? Vote your country leaving the EU. Oh, and FYI, Romanian tech salaries are some of the highest in EU where new grads can earn €2k NET due to a hot market and low taxes so your point about wage dumping doesn't hold.
      - negamax 7y ago
        That's still not good enough as compared to Zurich or Amsterdam. Or many other cities. Why stop at tech. Many Romanians and other poor EU immigrants move across Europe for all kind of jobs. I don't think you have thought this through and not realizing or outright ignoring xenophobia in your arguments.
aclsid 7y ago
I think more of an issue with who they hire it should be more about the minimum amount they are allowed to pay. That will tilt the scale in favor of home players since they already know the language, local customs, work culture, etc.

xilni 7y ago

In the DC metro area: Starter salaries for new software development or RE/VR grads, straight out of college with 1-2 summer internships under their belt, is 80-100k. These are not your I got poached by FAANGs MIT or Stanford grads we're talking about, just regular UMD/Mason, etc... working at cyber contractors or small-medium size tech companies. One of my coworkers used to live her dream of living in Amsterdam doing dev work for a year, while the experience was very relaxed and it was a fun city, she said she couldn't justify getting paid 30-40k a year in Europe when the pay was triple here.