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I am of the opinion that open source, venture capital based companies are a disaster waiting to happen. Open source is just not compatible with the large return

I am of the opinion that open source, venture capital based companies are a disaster waiting to happen. Open source is just not compatible with the large return on investments that venture capital is built on. These companies will happily take the goodwill and source contributions that come from being open source and then eventually try to monetize by abandoning their open source license.

walrus01 7y ago
Look at what eventually happened to MySQL. And why mariadb now exists.
meesles 7y ago
Alternate take: The open source contributions for this kind of software are contributed to by the same large organizations that purchase this software. You and I (sorry if you are an ERP,etc. developer) probably aren't contributing to these codebases. One can then imagine that the competitive edge of this new software is subsidized by their customers' developers who contribute the modules needed to cover corner cases (like addresses in Japan, those are hard!). I agree with your point in general (Gitlab, for example), but this kind of software lives in an enterprise bubble which in my experience has much less 'true' open source behaviors anyway. If this model works for anyone, it's enterprise.
- dragonsh 7y ago
  > like addresses in Japan, those are hard! They aren't hard but indeed easy and very logical. It all started with the Chinese system of starting with the largest geographical entity and going to the most specific one [1]. Later its adopted both in Korea and Japan. It's been the same for dates Year-Month-Day (largest, smaller, smallest). There is no confusion whether it's DD/YY or MM/YY. Funny enough the currency symbol for Yuan and Yen is same character (¥). So if you understand Chinese, Korean or Japanese language the systems are same. In Japan the addresses start with the largest geographical entity and proceed to the most specific one. [2] [1] https://eastasiastudent.net/china/mandarin/postal-address/ https://eastasiastudent.net/china/mandarin/postal-address/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_addressing_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_addressing_system
  - meesles 7y ago
    As someone who lived (and is currently in Japan), I disagree. While addresses may be logical from the largest to smallest blocks from country to town to block, once you're on a block the address references the name of the building instead of an actual identifier. This sucks for a couple reasons: - Some building have one or more entrances or various sides of the block. Knowing the block does not give you any information on how to enter the building and so you basically just have to know the building you're going to or use maps/directions. In Western countries the number on the street is the main entrance of the building in most cases - Building names are often foreign in the downtown areas and can be confusing for locals + nonlocals to interact about. For example, pronouncing "Bienvenu Mansion" with my American accent can be confusing to the Japanese due to their particular Katakana readings of foreign words. My original point isn't very strong because in computing that isn't an issue since it's a problem for time of delivery or arrival, but I was just highlighting one random complexity of which there are millions globally that these ERPs need to handle.
    - dragonsh 7y ago
      It will be easier once you live long enough, it will take time to think differently about address when you are used to street address like in USA. Like many foreigner especially East Asian finds it hard to understand address in USA, when they compare it with their own systems. Even in Europe each place has their own way of address e.g. an Italian address will be different from a Swiss, French or a Belgian address system. ERP's are able to handle it for many years this complexity, now we should be able to make it easier.
cies 7y ago
Maybe coops would fit better?
- cardamomo 7y ago
  IMHO, coops are an underused model for organizing a business or organization across many fields.
  - cies 7y ago
    I'm not aware of FLOSS producing worker-coops that live off the additional services provided.
    - cardamomo 7y ago
      I'm not sure that's an argument specific to worker-coops, given there are very few FLOSS-producing enterprises of any type that are the sole means of financial support for their members.
- sam_lowry_ 7y ago
  like SWIFT, literally a cooperative of banks?
  - unixhero 7y ago
    No, like a cooperative organisation of companies.
  - cies 7y ago
    Could be, but I was considering worker-coops. But if we look at some open source foundations, they are pretty much that (but usually in a non-profit form, why would that be? /s).
f00_ 7y ago
I think databricks and Apache Spark are probably the most successful at this. An open-source project, whose maintainers offer a hosted/managed version.
pinky07 7y ago
Founder of Odoo here. I think you are wrong, at least for the case of Odoo. All the decisions we took have never been influenced by VC, or a goal of large returns. Quite the opposite: we always execute for the long term (e.g. growing the community), rather than short term benefits. Our decisions are based on good balance between the good of Odoo Community, and the financial sustainability of the company and partners. There is no way we will abandon our open source product. To guarantee that on my own, I kept the majority of the shares. (and I work for the project, not the money) For years, we have had people thinking we will abandon the open source community. But we do that since 15 years now (first VC invested in 2010), and we continue investing massively in our open source version. (Typically, we try to keep a ratio of 80% of what we do is open source, 20% is Enterprise) Explanation of our model here: https://www.odoo.com/blog/odoo-news-5/post/odoo-community-enterprise-532 https://www.odoo.com/blog/odoo-news-5/post/odoo-community-en...
- disiplus 7y ago
  i don't believe you, after removing much core features from v12 you are removing payroll from v13. every of those decisions are speaking against what you just said.

walrus01 7y ago

Look at what eventually happened to MySQL. And why mariadb now exists.

meesles 7y ago

Alternate take: The open source contributions for this kind of software are contributed to by the same large organizations that purchase this software. You and I (sorry if you are an ERP,etc. developer) probably aren't contributing to these codebases. One can then imagine that the competitive edge of this new software is subsidized by their customers' developers who contribute the modules needed to cover corner cases (like addresses in Japan, those are hard!). I agree with your point in general (Gitlab, for example), but this kind of software lives in an enterprise bubble which in my experience has much less 'true' open source behaviors anyway. If this model works for anyone, it's enterprise.

dragonsh 7y ago
> like addresses in Japan, those are hard! They aren't hard but indeed easy and very logical. It all started with the Chinese system of starting with the largest geographical entity and going to the most specific one [1]. Later its adopted both in Korea and Japan. It's been the same for dates Year-Month-Day (largest, smaller, smallest). There is no confusion whether it's DD/YY or MM/YY. Funny enough the currency symbol for Yuan and Yen is same character (¥). So if you understand Chinese, Korean or Japanese language the systems are same. In Japan the addresses start with the largest geographical entity and proceed to the most specific one. [2] [1] https://eastasiastudent.net/china/mandarin/postal-address/ https://eastasiastudent.net/china/mandarin/postal-address/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_addressing_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_addressing_system
- meesles 7y ago
  As someone who lived (and is currently in Japan), I disagree. While addresses may be logical from the largest to smallest blocks from country to town to block, once you're on a block the address references the name of the building instead of an actual identifier. This sucks for a couple reasons: - Some building have one or more entrances or various sides of the block. Knowing the block does not give you any information on how to enter the building and so you basically just have to know the building you're going to or use maps/directions. In Western countries the number on the street is the main entrance of the building in most cases - Building names are often foreign in the downtown areas and can be confusing for locals + nonlocals to interact about. For example, pronouncing "Bienvenu Mansion" with my American accent can be confusing to the Japanese due to their particular Katakana readings of foreign words. My original point isn't very strong because in computing that isn't an issue since it's a problem for time of delivery or arrival, but I was just highlighting one random complexity of which there are millions globally that these ERPs need to handle.
  - dragonsh 7y ago
    It will be easier once you live long enough, it will take time to think differently about address when you are used to street address like in USA. Like many foreigner especially East Asian finds it hard to understand address in USA, when they compare it with their own systems. Even in Europe each place has their own way of address e.g. an Italian address will be different from a Swiss, French or a Belgian address system. ERP's are able to handle it for many years this complexity, now we should be able to make it easier.

cies 7y ago

Maybe coops would fit better?

cardamomo 7y ago
IMHO, coops are an underused model for organizing a business or organization across many fields.
- cies 7y ago
  I'm not aware of FLOSS producing worker-coops that live off the additional services provided.
  - cardamomo 7y ago
    I'm not sure that's an argument specific to worker-coops, given there are very few FLOSS-producing enterprises of any type that are the sole means of financial support for their members.
sam_lowry_ 7y ago
like SWIFT, literally a cooperative of banks?
- unixhero 7y ago
  No, like a cooperative organisation of companies.
- cies 7y ago
  Could be, but I was considering worker-coops. But if we look at some open source foundations, they are pretty much that (but usually in a non-profit form, why would that be? /s).

f00_ 7y ago

I think databricks and Apache Spark are probably the most successful at this. An open-source project, whose maintainers offer a hosted/managed version.

pinky07 7y ago

Founder of Odoo here. I think you are wrong, at least for the case of Odoo. All the decisions we took have never been influenced by VC, or a goal of large returns. Quite the opposite: we always execute for the long term (e.g. growing the community), rather than short term benefits. Our decisions are based on good balance between the good of Odoo Community, and the financial sustainability of the company and partners. There is no way we will abandon our open source product. To guarantee that on my own, I kept the majority of the shares. (and I work for the project, not the money) For years, we have had people thinking we will abandon the open source community. But we do that since 15 years now (first VC invested in 2010), and we continue investing massively in our open source version. (Typically, we try to keep a ratio of 80% of what we do is open source, 20% is Enterprise) Explanation of our model here: https://www.odoo.com/blog/odoo-news-5/post/odoo-community-enterprise-532 https://www.odoo.com/blog/odoo-news-5/post/odoo-community-en...

disiplus 7y ago
i don't believe you, after removing much core features from v12 you are removing payroll from v13. every of those decisions are speaking against what you just said.