7 ms·

Seasteadding today seems a lot more like the ambitions of billionaires for their own benefit. I am not convinced they are interested in new forms of governance

Seasteadding today seems a lot more like the ambitions of billionaires for their own benefit. I am not convinced they are interested in new forms of governance insofar as they are just interested in a tax-free region where they can skirt regulations on an absolute level. I might be convinced if the discussion around these new societies they want to build were more focused on egalatarianism. Otherwise, it sounds like the societies they want have already been built and tried around 100 years ago with company towns like Fordlandia.

nickpinkston 7y ago
The entire history of the libertarian movement [1] is essentially one of being astroturfed from the very beginning. If you read the history, like the "Invisible Hands" book [2], you'll see that business people started out wanting to reduce their taxes and regulations on their businesses, and then found/funded/promoted libertarian thinkers like Hayek and Von Mises and later Friedman, etc. to create movements that used a libertarian narrative to sell their self-interested goals. It's no coincidence that the names who funded this DuPonts, Scaifes, Kochs, etc. all got rich from building huge private businesses around fossil fuel and other polluting extractive industries. [3,4] When I was libertarian, I was authentically so, and later saw the flaws in the arguments which led me to be liberal-democrat/neoliberal, and only recently did I discover this astroturfing history. [1] Which I was involved in when I was in college. [2] https://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Hands-Businessmens-Crusade-Against/dp/0393337669 https://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Hands-Businessmens-Crusade-... [3] "Sons of Wichita" on the Kochs: https://www.amazon.com/Sons-Wichita-Brothers-Americas-Powerful/dp/1455518727/ https://www.amazon.com/Sons-Wichita-Brothers-Americas-Powerf... [4] "Dark Money" https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Money-History-Billionaires-Radical/dp/0307947904/ https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Money-History-Billionaires-Radic...
- Matticus_Rex 7y ago
  So people with money finance research people are doing that advances things they care about, like... checks notes The Kochs' efforts on criminal justice reform? This is the Soros conspiracy theory for lefties.
  - HarryHirsch 7y ago
    The Kochs' efforts on criminal justice reform? Good you mentioned that one. The goal is to push through on mens rea for company executives, for the top brass to go to prison you actually have to prove intent of malfeasance. "Should know" would not be enough to lock someone away. Currently playing in a theater near you: the 737-MAX drama.
    - Matticus_Rex 7y ago
      No, that's not the goal. How do I know? I used to work in the libertarian movement and know a lot of the people involved. I have a number of mutual friends with the Kochs. The people involved in this (even at the top levels) really do believe in criminal justice reform.
  - nickpinkston 7y ago
    I doubt you've done the research I have on this, so I'll leave it as an exercise to you and readers here to read my links, critiques of them, and draw your own conclusions. Also, I'm not saying everything Koch's touch is all wrong, but you can usually trace it back to self-interest whether directly or as cover. They do a lot of focus grouping to get from, for instance: "taxes are wrong" --> "don't build expensive public transit" --> "make a ballot prop to widen highways at the expense of public transit", and the latter actually happened, per NY Times article below: [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/climate/koch-brothers-public-transit.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/climate/koch-brothers-pub...
    - Matticus_Rex 7y ago
      Thanks to my past life working in the libertarian movement, I personally know a lot of the people written about in these conspiracy theories, and have been previously accused of being a paid Koch shill with nefarious motives for expressing my genuine (research-based!) opinions on what I think is best for society. I've met some self-interested people on the establishment Republican lobbying side, but almost none of them were even peripherally connected to the Koch network, and at least the parts of the Koch network I interfaced with didn't like that at all. Believe we're wrong if you want, but accusing us of bad faith just because you can find some way something might conceivably benefit us is lazy. I have my disagreements with the Kochtopus, but everyone I know even at the highest levels of those organizations is fiercely ideologically motivated, and the people I know who know the Kochs say that absolutely extends to them (and I haven't seen things that seem to contradict it).
- seibelj 7y ago
  I’m a libertarian and it’s not because people are paying me. It’s from a principled stance that it’s the best and most ethical system of societal organization possible. To name but a few recent victories where libertarians have been both right and well ahead of the curve - drug legalization, criminal justice reform, and school choice. Next will be sex work which I anticipate will be legalized in many places in the USA within the next decade.
  - munk-a 7y ago
    Ah, so you're an actual libertarian, not a Libertarian. I tend to agree with libertarian principles but often times they just get co-opted by Libertarians.
    - seibelj 7y ago
      Do you mean the Libertarian Party? I am not a member because I don’t want to be a member of any political party out of principle. As an independent I have voted for candidates of different parties depending on the situation. It’s impossible that 2 parties (or 3) capture all of someone’s views.
      - munk-a 7y ago
        In part yes - in America there is a Libertarian philosophy that doesn't match what the rest of the world calls libertarianism, big-l Libertarianism seems much more heavily focused on fiscal freedom at the expense of freedom of opportunity, while little-l libertarianism tends to value freedom of opportunity and freedom of expression above the purely fiscal freedoms. Sadly, both groups tend to cling to the term l/Libertarianism which can confuse things. I mostly mention this because different people will read your self-described libertarianism differently with some people reading it as Libertarianism.
        seibelj 7y ago
        It's an aphorism that if you put 1000 libertarians in a room you will have 1000 definitions of what a "real" libertarian is. For me, the essence of libertarianism is about valuing the individual over the collective. This includes protecting individuals from the state by restricting state power, strong protection of private property, economic freedom, and allowing people the freedom to make their own decisions even if they are dumb decisions. It's a very natural and free way of living. So many people want the state to coerce others into doing what they want - essentially running other people's lives. That is a great evil and how casually people resort to this makes me ill. I just want everyone to have maximum freedom possible.
- voldacar 7y ago
  Wow, people support political movements that would benefit them if they came to power? Tell me more, enlightened social analyst!
vbuterin 7y ago
I've talked to a bunch of these people. I definitely don't think abdication of social responsibility of any form is the goal. Those people don't bother with the effort of trying to cook up new jurisdictions, and just go to various existing small island nations that give them favorable tax treatment. These are people that genuinely think that governance of physical space is the next great frontier that needs to be innovated/disrupted. That said, I actually agree with the critique that at least the Silicon Valley-based "let's rebuild new governance zones from scratch" community tends to have a way too uncritical love of capitalism, and doesn't appreciate the myriad ways in which shareholder voting, and fancy new-age analogues of shareholder voting like coin-holder voting, are terrible. I remember one conversation where we were discussing cryptocurrencies, and one person pointed out how "VC chains" (new blockchains funded by VC firms where a small number of VC firms hold the majority of the tokens) were not being received well around the world, and this person was met with blank stares. But this is a medium-sized ideological disagreement, very far from "these people are just selfish freeloaders".
hinkley 7y ago
We’ve simply found a new way to make a company town without calling it that.

nickpinkston 7y ago

The entire history of the libertarian movement [1] is essentially one of being astroturfed from the very beginning. If you read the history, like the "Invisible Hands" book [2], you'll see that business people started out wanting to reduce their taxes and regulations on their businesses, and then found/funded/promoted libertarian thinkers like Hayek and Von Mises and later Friedman, etc. to create movements that used a libertarian narrative to sell their self-interested goals. It's no coincidence that the names who funded this DuPonts, Scaifes, Kochs, etc. all got rich from building huge private businesses around fossil fuel and other polluting extractive industries. [3,4] When I was libertarian, I was authentically so, and later saw the flaws in the arguments which led me to be liberal-democrat/neoliberal, and only recently did I discover this astroturfing history. [1] Which I was involved in when I was in college. [2] https://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Hands-Businessmens-Crusade-Against/dp/0393337669 https://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Hands-Businessmens-Crusade-... [3] "Sons of Wichita" on the Kochs: https://www.amazon.com/Sons-Wichita-Brothers-Americas-Powerful/dp/1455518727/ https://www.amazon.com/Sons-Wichita-Brothers-Americas-Powerf... [4] "Dark Money" https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Money-History-Billionaires-Radical/dp/0307947904/ https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Money-History-Billionaires-Radic...

Matticus_Rex 7y ago
So people with money finance research people are doing that advances things they care about, like... checks notes The Kochs' efforts on criminal justice reform? This is the Soros conspiracy theory for lefties.
- HarryHirsch 7y ago
  The Kochs' efforts on criminal justice reform? Good you mentioned that one. The goal is to push through on mens rea for company executives, for the top brass to go to prison you actually have to prove intent of malfeasance. "Should know" would not be enough to lock someone away. Currently playing in a theater near you: the 737-MAX drama.
  - Matticus_Rex 7y ago
    No, that's not the goal. How do I know? I used to work in the libertarian movement and know a lot of the people involved. I have a number of mutual friends with the Kochs. The people involved in this (even at the top levels) really do believe in criminal justice reform.
- nickpinkston 7y ago
  I doubt you've done the research I have on this, so I'll leave it as an exercise to you and readers here to read my links, critiques of them, and draw your own conclusions. Also, I'm not saying everything Koch's touch is all wrong, but you can usually trace it back to self-interest whether directly or as cover. They do a lot of focus grouping to get from, for instance: "taxes are wrong" --> "don't build expensive public transit" --> "make a ballot prop to widen highways at the expense of public transit", and the latter actually happened, per NY Times article below: [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/climate/koch-brothers-public-transit.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/climate/koch-brothers-pub...
  - Matticus_Rex 7y ago
    Thanks to my past life working in the libertarian movement, I personally know a lot of the people written about in these conspiracy theories, and have been previously accused of being a paid Koch shill with nefarious motives for expressing my genuine (research-based!) opinions on what I think is best for society. I've met some self-interested people on the establishment Republican lobbying side, but almost none of them were even peripherally connected to the Koch network, and at least the parts of the Koch network I interfaced with didn't like that at all. Believe we're wrong if you want, but accusing us of bad faith just because you can find some way something might conceivably benefit us is lazy. I have my disagreements with the Kochtopus, but everyone I know even at the highest levels of those organizations is fiercely ideologically motivated, and the people I know who know the Kochs say that absolutely extends to them (and I haven't seen things that seem to contradict it).
seibelj 7y ago
I’m a libertarian and it’s not because people are paying me. It’s from a principled stance that it’s the best and most ethical system of societal organization possible. To name but a few recent victories where libertarians have been both right and well ahead of the curve - drug legalization, criminal justice reform, and school choice. Next will be sex work which I anticipate will be legalized in many places in the USA within the next decade.
- munk-a 7y ago
  Ah, so you're an actual libertarian, not a Libertarian. I tend to agree with libertarian principles but often times they just get co-opted by Libertarians.
  - seibelj 7y ago
    Do you mean the Libertarian Party? I am not a member because I don’t want to be a member of any political party out of principle. As an independent I have voted for candidates of different parties depending on the situation. It’s impossible that 2 parties (or 3) capture all of someone’s views.
    - munk-a 7y ago
      In part yes - in America there is a Libertarian philosophy that doesn't match what the rest of the world calls libertarianism, big-l Libertarianism seems much more heavily focused on fiscal freedom at the expense of freedom of opportunity, while little-l libertarianism tends to value freedom of opportunity and freedom of expression above the purely fiscal freedoms. Sadly, both groups tend to cling to the term l/Libertarianism which can confuse things. I mostly mention this because different people will read your self-described libertarianism differently with some people reading it as Libertarianism.
      - seibelj 7y ago
        It's an aphorism that if you put 1000 libertarians in a room you will have 1000 definitions of what a "real" libertarian is. For me, the essence of libertarianism is about valuing the individual over the collective. This includes protecting individuals from the state by restricting state power, strong protection of private property, economic freedom, and allowing people the freedom to make their own decisions even if they are dumb decisions. It's a very natural and free way of living. So many people want the state to coerce others into doing what they want - essentially running other people's lives. That is a great evil and how casually people resort to this makes me ill. I just want everyone to have maximum freedom possible.
voldacar 7y ago
Wow, people support political movements that would benefit them if they came to power? Tell me more, enlightened social analyst!

vbuterin 7y ago

I've talked to a bunch of these people. I definitely don't think abdication of social responsibility of any form is the goal. Those people don't bother with the effort of trying to cook up new jurisdictions, and just go to various existing small island nations that give them favorable tax treatment. These are people that genuinely think that governance of physical space is the next great frontier that needs to be innovated/disrupted. That said, I actually agree with the critique that at least the Silicon Valley-based "let's rebuild new governance zones from scratch" community tends to have a way too uncritical love of capitalism, and doesn't appreciate the myriad ways in which shareholder voting, and fancy new-age analogues of shareholder voting like coin-holder voting, are terrible. I remember one conversation where we were discussing cryptocurrencies, and one person pointed out how "VC chains" (new blockchains funded by VC firms where a small number of VC firms hold the majority of the tokens) were not being received well around the world, and this person was met with blank stares. But this is a medium-sized ideological disagreement, very far from "these people are just selfish freeloaders".

hinkley 7y ago

We’ve simply found a new way to make a company town without calling it that.