6 ms·

Except that the horrible in question - giving puberty blockers and other transgender treatments to children - is already happening, and I think I remember a cas

Except that the horrible in question - giving puberty blockers and other transgender treatments to children - is already happening, and I think I remember a case in Canada where that was done despite the wishes of the parents.

tptacek 7y ago
All a puberty blocker does is delay the onset of puberty. They're part of the medical standard of care, and have no permanent effects that require reversal; their effects end as soon as they're taken. The whole point of them is to buy time for patients to more carefully consider their path going forward. They're practically the opposite of "unproven and ill-advised". I'm not seeing the "horrible" here. But more to the point: the public policy debate about trans people is about whether they can use the bathroom or be fired from jobs.
- DuskStar 7y ago
  > All a puberty blocker does is delay the onset of puberty. They're part of the medical standard of care, and have no permanent effects that require reversal; their effects end as soon as they're taken. If that's true, then that's fine! But I was under the impression that there were still significant concerns about the long term safety of those drugs. (And other allegations besides safety - I've heard that many/most people who identify as the opposite gender prior to puberty begin to identify as their birth gender following puberty, but I don't have a source there) And it sure seems to me like the debate is about more than just bathrooms. "Can there be legal repercussions for misgendering someone", for instance.
  - tptacek 7y ago
    So, let's acknowledge that we're just random people on a message board discussing a complicated topic neither of us are authoritative about, and that we're both going to do the standard message board thing of quickly Googling for resources that connect to our arguments. With that said: the resources I found strongly suggest that puberty blockers are, especially for patients with strong dysphoria (which is dangerous in its own right!) safe and present no meaningful long-term consequences. The more powerful argument here would be that the people who do have the most authority in this subject --- medical professionals --- appear to have achieved a consensus on this topic, and that most of the push-back on it seems to be from laypeople second-guessing them. If those laypeople themselves can generate powerful arguments, more power to them, but I don't see what they are. So far, I'm inclined to trust the doctors. Outside of the Jordan Peterverse, I don't see "legal consequences for misgendering people" as a live issue, but I'll say right now that I'm only familiar with and interested in the debate in the US, where the story we're commenting on takes place, and which is the most important venue for the "snowflakes and safe spaces" debate.
- manfredo 7y ago
  No permanent side effects? Risks of puberty blockers include compromise bone development, underdeveloped genitals, and infertility. I don't know where you're claiming that they're the "opposite of unproved and ill-advised". Using synthetic hormones to block puberty in adolescents and pre-teens is something that's only been done in the last decade or so. Most publications indicate that the safety is far from certain, due to the limited amount of time that these drugs have been used [1]. The potential benefit of puberty blockers is that it potentially makes children who transition to the opposite sex more aesthetically similar to that sex. But since the majority of people who identify as transgender as children desist [2] (they eventually identify as their sex at birth) many are going to endure the risks of puberty blockers for no benefit. 1. https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/142/4/e20182162 https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/142/4/e201821... 2. https://www.kqed.org/futureofyou/441784/the-controversial-research-on-desistance-in-transgender-youth https://www.kqed.org/futureofyou/441784/the-controversial-re...
  - DuskStar 7y ago
    Thank you for providing elaboration here!
  - tptacek 7y ago
    Your comment makes a bunch of strong claims and backs them up with research results that appear to say the opposite thing. For instance: the American Academy of Pediatrics report you've cited is supportive of puberty blockers, and cites as sources other reports noting that they've been used safely for decades. If these are your best sources, the conclusion I draw is that your argument is weak.
    - manfredo 7y ago
      You originally claimed that "All a puberty blocker does is delay the onset of puberty" and that they "have no permanent effects that require reversal". From the pediatrics journal I cited: > Pubertal suppression is not without risks. Delaying puberty beyond one’s peers can also be stressful and can lead to lower self-esteem and increased risk taking. Some experts believe that genital underdevelopment may limit some potential reconstructive options. Research on long-term risks, particularly in terms of bone metabolism and fertility, is currently limited and provides varied results. Not only are there health risks, some of the potential damage is irreversible. Your above comment is completely dismissive of the health risks of puberty blockers. Whether or not the user puberty blockers is ethical is a question of whether compromising the health of the majority of children that display gender dysphoria but eventually identify with their birth sex versus blocking secondary sex characteristics to provide a more aesthetically pleasing body for the minority that do follow through with gender reassignment. While the study does ultimately support the use of puberty blockers it does so in an environment where highlighting that the majority of transgender children desist is socially unacceptable - to the point where many categorically deny that any transgender youth desist.
namirez 7y ago
> despite the wishes of the parents This is a complex subject and you're entitled to your opinion, but please don't misrepresent facts. The kid and the mother want the treatment, but the father is trying to block it. Source: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/06/trans-teenager-case-canada-father-halts-treatment https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/06/trans-teenager...
- DuskStar 7y ago
  And that does change things!
  - dsr_ 7y ago
    Yes, it does.

tptacek 7y ago

All a puberty blocker does is delay the onset of puberty. They're part of the medical standard of care, and have no permanent effects that require reversal; their effects end as soon as they're taken. The whole point of them is to buy time for patients to more carefully consider their path going forward. They're practically the opposite of "unproven and ill-advised". I'm not seeing the "horrible" here. But more to the point: the public policy debate about trans people is about whether they can use the bathroom or be fired from jobs.

DuskStar 7y ago
> All a puberty blocker does is delay the onset of puberty. They're part of the medical standard of care, and have no permanent effects that require reversal; their effects end as soon as they're taken. If that's true, then that's fine! But I was under the impression that there were still significant concerns about the long term safety of those drugs. (And other allegations besides safety - I've heard that many/most people who identify as the opposite gender prior to puberty begin to identify as their birth gender following puberty, but I don't have a source there) And it sure seems to me like the debate is about more than just bathrooms. "Can there be legal repercussions for misgendering someone", for instance.
- tptacek 7y ago
  So, let's acknowledge that we're just random people on a message board discussing a complicated topic neither of us are authoritative about, and that we're both going to do the standard message board thing of quickly Googling for resources that connect to our arguments. With that said: the resources I found strongly suggest that puberty blockers are, especially for patients with strong dysphoria (which is dangerous in its own right!) safe and present no meaningful long-term consequences. The more powerful argument here would be that the people who do have the most authority in this subject --- medical professionals --- appear to have achieved a consensus on this topic, and that most of the push-back on it seems to be from laypeople second-guessing them. If those laypeople themselves can generate powerful arguments, more power to them, but I don't see what they are. So far, I'm inclined to trust the doctors. Outside of the Jordan Peterverse, I don't see "legal consequences for misgendering people" as a live issue, but I'll say right now that I'm only familiar with and interested in the debate in the US, where the story we're commenting on takes place, and which is the most important venue for the "snowflakes and safe spaces" debate.
manfredo 7y ago
No permanent side effects? Risks of puberty blockers include compromise bone development, underdeveloped genitals, and infertility. I don't know where you're claiming that they're the "opposite of unproved and ill-advised". Using synthetic hormones to block puberty in adolescents and pre-teens is something that's only been done in the last decade or so. Most publications indicate that the safety is far from certain, due to the limited amount of time that these drugs have been used [1]. The potential benefit of puberty blockers is that it potentially makes children who transition to the opposite sex more aesthetically similar to that sex. But since the majority of people who identify as transgender as children desist [2] (they eventually identify as their sex at birth) many are going to endure the risks of puberty blockers for no benefit. 1. https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/142/4/e20182162 https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/142/4/e201821... 2. https://www.kqed.org/futureofyou/441784/the-controversial-research-on-desistance-in-transgender-youth https://www.kqed.org/futureofyou/441784/the-controversial-re...
- DuskStar 7y ago
  Thank you for providing elaboration here!
- tptacek 7y ago
  Your comment makes a bunch of strong claims and backs them up with research results that appear to say the opposite thing. For instance: the American Academy of Pediatrics report you've cited is supportive of puberty blockers, and cites as sources other reports noting that they've been used safely for decades. If these are your best sources, the conclusion I draw is that your argument is weak.
  - manfredo 7y ago
    You originally claimed that "All a puberty blocker does is delay the onset of puberty" and that they "have no permanent effects that require reversal". From the pediatrics journal I cited: > Pubertal suppression is not without risks. Delaying puberty beyond one’s peers can also be stressful and can lead to lower self-esteem and increased risk taking. Some experts believe that genital underdevelopment may limit some potential reconstructive options. Research on long-term risks, particularly in terms of bone metabolism and fertility, is currently limited and provides varied results. Not only are there health risks, some of the potential damage is irreversible. Your above comment is completely dismissive of the health risks of puberty blockers. Whether or not the user puberty blockers is ethical is a question of whether compromising the health of the majority of children that display gender dysphoria but eventually identify with their birth sex versus blocking secondary sex characteristics to provide a more aesthetically pleasing body for the minority that do follow through with gender reassignment. While the study does ultimately support the use of puberty blockers it does so in an environment where highlighting that the majority of transgender children desist is socially unacceptable - to the point where many categorically deny that any transgender youth desist.

namirez 7y ago

> despite the wishes of the parents This is a complex subject and you're entitled to your opinion, but please don't misrepresent facts. The kid and the mother want the treatment, but the father is trying to block it. Source: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/06/trans-teenager-case-canada-father-halts-treatment https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/06/trans-teenager...

DuskStar 7y ago
And that does change things!
- dsr_ 7y ago
  Yes, it does.