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This is as suspicious and creepy to me as the unbridled control Alphabet sought with Sidewalk Labs’ Toronto experiment.

by 52-6F-62 7y ago

the-dude 7y ago
We have corporations as big or bigger as countries. The class war has ended. What are we going to do?
- pixiemaster 7y ago
  Mad Max was not supposed to be an instruction manual.
  - mjcohen 7y ago
    Neither was 1984. And yet...
- 52-6F-62 7y ago
  I certainly hope it’s not cede all control in one swoop to a couple of rich guys who think they know what’s best for everyone. Im all for experimenting. I’m not for handing over local legal power to a corporation in one fell swoop because they promise to pay for my taxi as long as I’m in their good books. No—the immediacy and totality they’re pursuing is the thing that bothers me. Little compromise seems to be offered. They seem to think like vey corporations do—they should be able to “just buy it”. I don’t like that. Not everything is for sale.
  - CoryAlexMartin 7y ago
    > They seem to think like vey corporations do—they should be able to “just buy it”. I don’t like that. Not everything is for sale. Are you referring to buying land from a country? That's a form of cession, and it's certainly not unprecedented (see: Louisiana Purchase). In my eyes, it's the moral way to go about acquiring land, with the alternatives being annexation and conquest. Under what conditions are you okay with territorial control changing hands? Can land only be sold to other existing governments?
    - 52-6F-62 7y ago
      It wasn’t just real estate they wanted. They wanted judicial control over a region in Toronto while still retaining the benefits of being a Canadian locale. They seemed to think that was for sale.
      - CoryAlexMartin 7y ago
        I'm not aware of what you're referring to, but even if some entity wants to start an independent country in an area that was under the control of Canada and Toronto, what is your exact issue with it? Why is it not for sale? Is the issue that the theoretical small country would have open borders, and they'd expect the same from Canada? Should both countries have closed borders so that Canadians and the residents of the small country couldn't benefit from each other? If the borders were closed, would it be okay?
        52-6F-62 7y ago
        I don’t think you’re reading my comments or responding in good faith here as I explicitly stated what I was looking talking about. Have a nice holiday.
        CoryAlexMartin 7y ago
        I'm sorry you feel that way. When I said that I wasn't sure what you were referring to, I meant that I'm not familiar with the case you mentioned in Toronto. I searched for it but didn't find anything regarding what sort of control over the area they wanted. Perhaps it would have been better for me to ask for clarification about that specific case rather than creating a hypothetical scenario.
        52-6F-62 7y ago
        The Sidewalks Labs Toronto waterfront project. There’s a plethora of articles and a wealth of information on the subject... Edit: it’s one of the first items returned in a search of the subject— https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-sidewalk-labs-document-reveals-companys-early-plans-for-data/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-sidewalk-la...
- kilo_bravo_3 7y ago
  The largest corporation (not government-owned) in existence today is a microscopically small fragment of the size of the corporate behemoths of 100 years ago, and the corporations of one hundred years ago were microscopically minuscule compared to the largest corporations of 400 years ago. Not only that, but the ancient proto-corporations were not partners with government, they were governments. For about 20 years, the Mississippi Company was worth between $5-7 trillion, adjusted for inflation. That's about 6 Microsofts, and at the time of the Mississippi Company there were many chartered trading companies that ruled over their dominions with iron fists. Microsoft doesn't have a private army. How did puny little Microsoft/Google/Apple/BP/GE/Chase/whoever/whatever "end" the class war when Standard Oil did not?
  - the-dude 7y ago
    Thanks for your comment. I did not mean to blame the end of the class war on the mega-corps.
- big_chungus 7y ago
  As a historical "for scale", a bunch of rich businessmen once bailed out the American federal government: https://historydaily.org/panic-of-1893 https://historydaily.org/panic-of-1893 In 2008, the American federal government bailed out JP Morgan: https://dealbook.nytimes.com/2008/03/18/jpmorgans-12-billion-bailout/ https://dealbook.nytimes.com/2008/03/18/jpmorgans-12-billion... Now you tell me, who's bigger? America has huge companies that are nevertheless tiny in relation to her GDP and government expenditure. America happens to be quite populous, geographically-large, rich in resources, and highly-developed. It stands to reason that she supports many of the world's largest companies.
52-6F-62 7y ago
Because of other comments and my inability to edit my original comment I wanted to link this to my own parent note for context: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-sidewalk-labs-document-reveals-companys-early-plans-for-data/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-sidewalk-la...

This is as suspicious and creepy to me as the unbridled control Alphabet sought with Sidewalk Labs’ Toronto experiment.

the-dude 7y ago

We have corporations as big or bigger as countries. The class war has ended. What are we going to do?

pixiemaster 7y ago
Mad Max was not supposed to be an instruction manual.
- mjcohen 7y ago
  Neither was 1984. And yet...
52-6F-62 7y ago
I certainly hope it’s not cede all control in one swoop to a couple of rich guys who think they know what’s best for everyone. Im all for experimenting. I’m not for handing over local legal power to a corporation in one fell swoop because they promise to pay for my taxi as long as I’m in their good books. No—the immediacy and totality they’re pursuing is the thing that bothers me. Little compromise seems to be offered. They seem to think like vey corporations do—they should be able to “just buy it”. I don’t like that. Not everything is for sale.
- CoryAlexMartin 7y ago
  > They seem to think like vey corporations do—they should be able to “just buy it”. I don’t like that. Not everything is for sale. Are you referring to buying land from a country? That's a form of cession, and it's certainly not unprecedented (see: Louisiana Purchase). In my eyes, it's the moral way to go about acquiring land, with the alternatives being annexation and conquest. Under what conditions are you okay with territorial control changing hands? Can land only be sold to other existing governments?
  - 52-6F-62 7y ago
    It wasn’t just real estate they wanted. They wanted judicial control over a region in Toronto while still retaining the benefits of being a Canadian locale. They seemed to think that was for sale.
    - CoryAlexMartin 7y ago
      I'm not aware of what you're referring to, but even if some entity wants to start an independent country in an area that was under the control of Canada and Toronto, what is your exact issue with it? Why is it not for sale? Is the issue that the theoretical small country would have open borders, and they'd expect the same from Canada? Should both countries have closed borders so that Canadians and the residents of the small country couldn't benefit from each other? If the borders were closed, would it be okay?
      - 52-6F-62 7y ago
        I don’t think you’re reading my comments or responding in good faith here as I explicitly stated what I was looking talking about. Have a nice holiday.
        CoryAlexMartin 7y ago
        I'm sorry you feel that way. When I said that I wasn't sure what you were referring to, I meant that I'm not familiar with the case you mentioned in Toronto. I searched for it but didn't find anything regarding what sort of control over the area they wanted. Perhaps it would have been better for me to ask for clarification about that specific case rather than creating a hypothetical scenario.
        52-6F-62 7y ago
        The Sidewalks Labs Toronto waterfront project. There’s a plethora of articles and a wealth of information on the subject... Edit: it’s one of the first items returned in a search of the subject— https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-sidewalk-labs-document-reveals-companys-early-plans-for-data/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-sidewalk-la...
kilo_bravo_3 7y ago
The largest corporation (not government-owned) in existence today is a microscopically small fragment of the size of the corporate behemoths of 100 years ago, and the corporations of one hundred years ago were microscopically minuscule compared to the largest corporations of 400 years ago. Not only that, but the ancient proto-corporations were not partners with government, they were governments. For about 20 years, the Mississippi Company was worth between $5-7 trillion, adjusted for inflation. That's about 6 Microsofts, and at the time of the Mississippi Company there were many chartered trading companies that ruled over their dominions with iron fists. Microsoft doesn't have a private army. How did puny little Microsoft/Google/Apple/BP/GE/Chase/whoever/whatever "end" the class war when Standard Oil did not?
- the-dude 7y ago
  Thanks for your comment. I did not mean to blame the end of the class war on the mega-corps.
big_chungus 7y ago
As a historical "for scale", a bunch of rich businessmen once bailed out the American federal government: https://historydaily.org/panic-of-1893 https://historydaily.org/panic-of-1893 In 2008, the American federal government bailed out JP Morgan: https://dealbook.nytimes.com/2008/03/18/jpmorgans-12-billion-bailout/ https://dealbook.nytimes.com/2008/03/18/jpmorgans-12-billion... Now you tell me, who's bigger? America has huge companies that are nevertheless tiny in relation to her GDP and government expenditure. America happens to be quite populous, geographically-large, rich in resources, and highly-developed. It stands to reason that she supports many of the world's largest companies.

52-6F-62 7y ago

Because of other comments and my inability to edit my original comment I wanted to link this to my own parent note for context: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-sidewalk-labs-document-reveals-companys-early-plans-for-data/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-sidewalk-la...