3 ms·

>and I'd guess in many times wrongly since the US incarcerates twice as many people per capita than Russia or China. That's a very interesting theory. How is

>and I'd guess in many times wrongly since the US incarcerates twice as many people per capita than Russia or China. That's a very interesting theory. How is it you conclude the US vs Russia/China prison population is indicative of the US wrongly incarcerating "many people?" The current estimates say US wrongful conviction sits around 2-10% with an 85% conviction rate overall, meanwhile Russia has 99%+ conviction rate overall (suggesting far more corruption and wrongful convictions) and China it is estimated 90% of crimes go unreported due to general mistrust of the system. Based on US crime rates, the majority of violent and property crimes go unsolved...hell I think murder cases are around 60% unsolved...so how exactly is it: 1) US many times wrongly imprison people; and 2) Russia/China prison population have any connection to this conclusion?

munk-a 7y ago
I would guess that the rate of criminal activity in the world is relatively flat until you start introducing factors like political instability. My optimism would say that the US is probably on par with China in terms of providing a stable society, and both of them are miles ahead of Russia. The US may not be as stable as some of the European countries but the netherlands has an incarceration rate of 61/100,000 while the US has 655/100,000 this is all according to the rough numbers up on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera...
- ctvo 7y ago
  How is comparing incarceration rate relevant to this discussion when countries have differing laws? People aren't wrongly imprisoned if they've broken agreed upon laws, especially in a democratic society where popularly elected officials pass the laws. If society Z passed a law with a minimum three year prison sentence for jaywalking (pedestrian crossing a street without the right of away provided by a traffic signal), the incarceration rate may rise, but no one is wrongly imprisoned. (replace with the war on drugs in the US, of course).
  - munk-a 7y ago
    This may be particularly relevant as I chose the netherlands and it has a relaxed attitude toward substance abuse - so grabbing a better example country... The UK has a rate of 140/100,000 vs. the US's 655/100,000. That said, laws honestly don't differ extremely from country to country, most humans are in agreement about what is good and what is ill and in countries that have more extreme punishment (getting decades in prison for stealing bread) those punishments are viewed as unjust and enforcement of those penalties tends to be spotty since corruption will be more socially acceptable and people will have more moral allowance to ignore the unjust laws - a prison guard might just let someone otherwise blameless escape from jail for the penalty of stealing bread after a few days. Honestly, while oftentimes human beings are terrible, humans are pretty decent otherwise... That all said, I think you'd find that laws really don't vary as much from country to country and that, outside of weird ones (like MJ illegality in the US) people will mostly adhere to laws out of convenience.
    - kuzimoto 7y ago
      The US population is nearly 5x of the UK, has a much larger area and perimeter, and is more wealthy (7.8x total GDP, 1.3x per capita). This no doubt makes drug trafficking not only easier, but also much more profitable in the US vs UK. It would also appear illicit drug use in US is more prevalent than in nearly every other country. Edit: I'm not sure how relevant this is to what you posted, but figured I'd bring it up because I think it's an important thing to note in the general conversation.
      - munk-a 7y ago
        The figures above where scaled to population, the actual US population (according to the wiki source) was 2,121,600 vs. UK with 83,014 - the GDP is honestly pretty even per capita though the US probably suffers from worse wealth inequality[1] although the CIA factbook says that both countries have ~15% population below the poverty line - so many that's not really a factor. 1. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/221.html https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/...
thatcat 7y ago
The difference between 99 and 85 is only 14 %, so what - the 14% with the most expensive lawyers get off and everyone else gets forced into a plea deal. That's not less corrupt, just corruption organized differently. Also quantitatively, considering the difference between the total convictions 14% makes no difference. the us is still way ahead. 60% is meaningless in this context, it just shows that LEA focuses on the wrong types of crime. How many murders are unsolved? Whatever the number it is small compared to people who are arrested for whatever happens to be most convenient and profitable.

munk-a 7y ago

I would guess that the rate of criminal activity in the world is relatively flat until you start introducing factors like political instability. My optimism would say that the US is probably on par with China in terms of providing a stable society, and both of them are miles ahead of Russia. The US may not be as stable as some of the European countries but the netherlands has an incarceration rate of 61/100,000 while the US has 655/100,000 this is all according to the rough numbers up on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera...

ctvo 7y ago
How is comparing incarceration rate relevant to this discussion when countries have differing laws? People aren't wrongly imprisoned if they've broken agreed upon laws, especially in a democratic society where popularly elected officials pass the laws. If society Z passed a law with a minimum three year prison sentence for jaywalking (pedestrian crossing a street without the right of away provided by a traffic signal), the incarceration rate may rise, but no one is wrongly imprisoned. (replace with the war on drugs in the US, of course).
- munk-a 7y ago
  This may be particularly relevant as I chose the netherlands and it has a relaxed attitude toward substance abuse - so grabbing a better example country... The UK has a rate of 140/100,000 vs. the US's 655/100,000. That said, laws honestly don't differ extremely from country to country, most humans are in agreement about what is good and what is ill and in countries that have more extreme punishment (getting decades in prison for stealing bread) those punishments are viewed as unjust and enforcement of those penalties tends to be spotty since corruption will be more socially acceptable and people will have more moral allowance to ignore the unjust laws - a prison guard might just let someone otherwise blameless escape from jail for the penalty of stealing bread after a few days. Honestly, while oftentimes human beings are terrible, humans are pretty decent otherwise... That all said, I think you'd find that laws really don't vary as much from country to country and that, outside of weird ones (like MJ illegality in the US) people will mostly adhere to laws out of convenience.
  - kuzimoto 7y ago
    The US population is nearly 5x of the UK, has a much larger area and perimeter, and is more wealthy (7.8x total GDP, 1.3x per capita). This no doubt makes drug trafficking not only easier, but also much more profitable in the US vs UK. It would also appear illicit drug use in US is more prevalent than in nearly every other country. Edit: I'm not sure how relevant this is to what you posted, but figured I'd bring it up because I think it's an important thing to note in the general conversation.
    - munk-a 7y ago
      The figures above where scaled to population, the actual US population (according to the wiki source) was 2,121,600 vs. UK with 83,014 - the GDP is honestly pretty even per capita though the US probably suffers from worse wealth inequality[1] although the CIA factbook says that both countries have ~15% population below the poverty line - so many that's not really a factor. 1. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/221.html https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/...

thatcat 7y ago

The difference between 99 and 85 is only 14 %, so what - the 14% with the most expensive lawyers get off and everyone else gets forced into a plea deal. That's not less corrupt, just corruption organized differently. Also quantitatively, considering the difference between the total convictions 14% makes no difference. the us is still way ahead. 60% is meaningless in this context, it just shows that LEA focuses on the wrong types of crime. How many murders are unsolved? Whatever the number it is small compared to people who are arrested for whatever happens to be most convenient and profitable.