5 ms·

Because USA doesn't execute prisoners at the rate China or Russia does

munk-a 7y ago
Those prisoners are being deprived of their lives - and I'd guess in many times wrongly since the US incarcerates twice as many people per capita than Russia or China.
- caseysoftware 7y ago
  Do you believe the figures Russia and China publish? Alternatively, if a country had a high rate of executions and/or "disappearing" people, what would happen to that country's incarceration rate? Alternatively, is the term "incarceration" only applied to people convicted of a crime? Would re-education camps count towards the incarceration rate?
  - munk-a 7y ago
    Sorry I missed including my source, here it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera... (and yes, it's probably got a quite high inaccuracy, but there aren't other easy to ingest sources I found)
    - maqp 7y ago
      US has basically modernized slavery with the for-profit prison system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHz2Hmq7soo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHz2Hmq7soo
      - Jamwinner 7y ago
        I see this a lot. I am conflicted. On one hand, guards, staff,etc need to be paid. Someone being a criminal should not put extra burden on the rest of us, and our social services. Many for-profit prisons are incentivized to better serve than state-run institutions. On the other hand, many prisons, private and otherwise, seem to play dirty rent-seeking bs with insanely low conpensation for work done, exorbiant fees for calling, visiting,or even emailing family, and systematic mismanagement. Clearly there is a way to optimize this system, and both profit, and improve lives. Maybe someone here has a vision.
        munk-a 7y ago
        > Someone being a criminal should not put extra burden on the rest of us, and our social services, I disagree with this, criminals shouldn't place extreme burden on society, but it's our job to deal with rehabilitating them - it's a societal choice, some societies over time have forced capital punishments on any law breakers and our modern society tries to rehabilitate them.
- throwaway_tech 7y ago
  >and I'd guess in many times wrongly since the US incarcerates twice as many people per capita than Russia or China. That's a very interesting theory. How is it you conclude the US vs Russia/China prison population is indicative of the US wrongly incarcerating "many people?" The current estimates say US wrongful conviction sits around 2-10% with an 85% conviction rate overall, meanwhile Russia has 99%+ conviction rate overall (suggesting far more corruption and wrongful convictions) and China it is estimated 90% of crimes go unreported due to general mistrust of the system. Based on US crime rates, the majority of violent and property crimes go unsolved...hell I think murder cases are around 60% unsolved...so how exactly is it: 1) US many times wrongly imprison people; and 2) Russia/China prison population have any connection to this conclusion?
  - munk-a 7y ago
    I would guess that the rate of criminal activity in the world is relatively flat until you start introducing factors like political instability. My optimism would say that the US is probably on par with China in terms of providing a stable society, and both of them are miles ahead of Russia. The US may not be as stable as some of the European countries but the netherlands has an incarceration rate of 61/100,000 while the US has 655/100,000 this is all according to the rough numbers up on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera...
    - ctvo 7y ago
      How is comparing incarceration rate relevant to this discussion when countries have differing laws? People aren't wrongly imprisoned if they've broken agreed upon laws, especially in a democratic society where popularly elected officials pass the laws. If society Z passed a law with a minimum three year prison sentence for jaywalking (pedestrian crossing a street without the right of away provided by a traffic signal), the incarceration rate may rise, but no one is wrongly imprisoned. (replace with the war on drugs in the US, of course).
      - munk-a 7y ago
geogra4 7y ago
Do you have numbers to back that up?
ElFitz 7y ago
Does that make democracy a throttled authoritarian government?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
amaccuish 7y ago
Russia doesn't execute prisoners? Source: https://lenta.ru/news/2009/11/19/death/ https://lenta.ru/news/2009/11/19/death/

Those prisoners are being deprived of their lives - and I'd guess in many times wrongly since the US incarcerates twice as many people per capita than Russia or China.

caseysoftware 7y ago
Do you believe the figures Russia and China publish? Alternatively, if a country had a high rate of executions and/or "disappearing" people, what would happen to that country's incarceration rate? Alternatively, is the term "incarceration" only applied to people convicted of a crime? Would re-education camps count towards the incarceration rate?
- munk-a 7y ago
  Sorry I missed including my source, here it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera... (and yes, it's probably got a quite high inaccuracy, but there aren't other easy to ingest sources I found)
  - maqp 7y ago
    US has basically modernized slavery with the for-profit prison system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHz2Hmq7soo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHz2Hmq7soo
    - Jamwinner 7y ago
      I see this a lot. I am conflicted. On one hand, guards, staff,etc need to be paid. Someone being a criminal should not put extra burden on the rest of us, and our social services. Many for-profit prisons are incentivized to better serve than state-run institutions. On the other hand, many prisons, private and otherwise, seem to play dirty rent-seeking bs with insanely low conpensation for work done, exorbiant fees for calling, visiting,or even emailing family, and systematic mismanagement. Clearly there is a way to optimize this system, and both profit, and improve lives. Maybe someone here has a vision.
      - munk-a 7y ago
        > Someone being a criminal should not put extra burden on the rest of us, and our social services, I disagree with this, criminals shouldn't place extreme burden on society, but it's our job to deal with rehabilitating them - it's a societal choice, some societies over time have forced capital punishments on any law breakers and our modern society tries to rehabilitate them.
throwaway_tech 7y ago
>and I'd guess in many times wrongly since the US incarcerates twice as many people per capita than Russia or China. That's a very interesting theory. How is it you conclude the US vs Russia/China prison population is indicative of the US wrongly incarcerating "many people?" The current estimates say US wrongful conviction sits around 2-10% with an 85% conviction rate overall, meanwhile Russia has 99%+ conviction rate overall (suggesting far more corruption and wrongful convictions) and China it is estimated 90% of crimes go unreported due to general mistrust of the system. Based on US crime rates, the majority of violent and property crimes go unsolved...hell I think murder cases are around 60% unsolved...so how exactly is it: 1) US many times wrongly imprison people; and 2) Russia/China prison population have any connection to this conclusion?
- munk-a 7y ago
  I would guess that the rate of criminal activity in the world is relatively flat until you start introducing factors like political instability. My optimism would say that the US is probably on par with China in terms of providing a stable society, and both of them are miles ahead of Russia. The US may not be as stable as some of the European countries but the netherlands has an incarceration rate of 61/100,000 while the US has 655/100,000 this is all according to the rough numbers up on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera...
  - ctvo 7y ago
    How is comparing incarceration rate relevant to this discussion when countries have differing laws? People aren't wrongly imprisoned if they've broken agreed upon laws, especially in a democratic society where popularly elected officials pass the laws. If society Z passed a law with a minimum three year prison sentence for jaywalking (pedestrian crossing a street without the right of away provided by a traffic signal), the incarceration rate may rise, but no one is wrongly imprisoned. (replace with the war on drugs in the US, of course).
    - munk-a 7y ago

geogra4 7y ago

Do you have numbers to back that up?

ElFitz 7y ago

Does that make democracy a throttled authoritarian government?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

amaccuish 7y ago

Russia doesn't execute prisoners? Source: https://lenta.ru/news/2009/11/19/death/ https://lenta.ru/news/2009/11/19/death/