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I get the concept of appreciating people for what they are, but I don't know what to do with this knowledge. Maybe I can apply it to an eccentric neighbor, but

I get the concept of appreciating people for what they are, but I don't know what to do with this knowledge. Maybe I can apply it to an eccentric neighbor, but how would I apply it to an unproductive employee, lying partner, or self-destructive friend. Thinking more about this, the forest is like a busy sidewalk full of people, but the people in our lives are more like the beautiful tree in the back yard that we take care of.

nerdponx 7y ago
If a tree is harmful (poison?) or dangerous (about to fall and crush you?) you either cut it down or stay away from it and warn others to stay away from it.
cainxinth 7y ago
I think that quote is describing the fundamental attribution error: "the tendency for people to under-emphasize situational explanations for an individual's observed behavior while over-emphasizing dispositional and personality-based explanations." When you see someone cut you off in traffic, you might instantly assume they are just a born jerk that doesn't care about others, but maybe they are rushing to the hospital.
crazygringo 7y ago
In practice, you deal with the unproductive employee, lying partner, etc. the same way you always have. You still need to protect your own interests and not let people take advantage of you. But it means you don't let it affect you emotionally in the same way. While most people have a kind of internal monologue that goes "why are these people so bad, why is the world wronging me, I didn't do anything to deserve this, why does life suck so bad sometimes, it's all these people's fault" you instead learn to just accept that the world has these people and not to waste emotional angst on them. You deal with them as necessary and then move on internally without anger, hatred, etc.
- tonystubblebine 7y ago
  I used to lose my shit at underpeforming co-workers all the time and then a more experienced guy pulled me aside and gave me a quote that was intended to do the same thing as Ram Dass's tree quote: "Nobody comes to work to do a bad job." What I realized that judging other people narrowed my vision so that I couldn't see any options. All I could see was that they were bad people who were going to hurt the project. When I could hold off on personalizing other people's performance then I could start to spot other reasons and sometimes even figure out constructive solutions. Maybe the other person is not delivering the code I need because they were given competing priorities. So, yeah, as you say, you still have to deal with these situations. I just found that I could see many more options for how to deal once I stopped being so judgmental.
  - DataWorker 7y ago
    If a man is crossing a river And an empty boat collides with his own skiff, Even though he be a bad-tempered man He will not become very angry. But if he sees a man in the boat, He will shout at him to steer clear. If the shout is not heard, he will shout again, And yet again, and begin cursing. And all because there is somebody in the boat. Yet if the boat were empty. He would not be shouting, and not angry. If you can empty your own boat Crossing the river of the world, No one will oppose you, No one will seek to harm you.
    - Jamwinner 7y ago
      If you think someone would hold their tounge because their car got hot by an empty one, i got some youtube compilations to enlighten you.
- mistermann 7y ago
  > In practice, you deal with the unproductive employee, lying partner, etc. the same way you always have. This is one option, but not the only one. "When you go out into the office, and you look at the landscape, you see all these different employees. And some of them are highly productive and collaborative, and some of them are less so, and some of them are positive high-achievers, and some of them are whatever. And you look at each employee and you allow it. You see [or try to see] why it is the way it is. You sort of understand that they didn’t get enough love or understanding, and so they turned that way. And you don’t get all emotional about it. You just allow it. You appreciate the person." "The minute you get near humans, you lose all that. And you are constantly saying ‘You are too this, or I’m too this.’ That judgment mind comes in. And so I practice turning people into trees. Which means appreciating them just the way they are." I think what Ram is getting at in the last paragraph is something along the lines that, while we can engage with nature in an unassuming, open-minded way, doing the same with other humans is extremely difficult. Due to our lack of control over our own minds, they get up to all sorts of mischief, jumping to unfounded and epistemically unsound conclusions, feeding our conscience minds with a representation of the world that is largely a hallucination. One way of dealing with this in the case of a problem employee, is to talk to them. Easier said than done though of course, because that process is subject to the very same problem, and others.
- teddyh 7y ago
  > In practice, you deal with the unproductive employee, lying partner, etc. the same way you always have. > But it means you don't let it affect you emotionally in the same way. “When the great doctor D. T. Suzuki was asked what is it like to be enlightened he said, ‘It’s just like ordinary everyday experience, except about two inches off the ground.’” — Alan Watts
- np_tedious 7y ago
  Spot on! You shouldn't go to bed upset with that lazy/bullshitting coworker, yet you keep your healthy skepticism and protect yourself. And while you aren't "mad" at it, you don't pitch your tent beneath that dying, leaning tree with the exposed roots.
adamsea 7y ago
Just 'cause you appreciate a tree doesn't mean you're going to stand by it if it's about to fall on you.
everdev 7y ago
Many spiritual gurus don't get married, have kids, run companies or live in violent areas. These are some of the most challenging (and potentially rewarding) social structures we have. They test you in deeper, more unexpected ways. While "appreciating what is" is a great general rule, like any world-view it can be limiting. I can imagine it's much easier to follow these concepts when you're safely surrounded by admirers. It's probably much harder to walk into a hostile / life-threatening situation and "appreciate what is".
- qazpot 7y ago
  > I can imagine it's much easier to follow these concepts when you're safely surrounded by admirers. It's probably much harder to walk into a hostile / life-threatening situation and "appreciate what is". Except a handful of spiritual gurus who get famous, a overwhelming majority is not surrounded by admirers.
- mikestew 7y ago
  I can imagine it's much easier to follow these concepts when you're safely surrounded by admirers. I can imagine that Vietnamese Buddhist monks of the 60s would share your sentiments. But they, too, could only imagine how much easier it might be. Well, I guess they didn't have to imagine very hard, as it was a lot easier just a few years back. (As background just in case, puppet pro-Catholic government was installed in Vietnam, and the national religion of Buddhism was effectively outlawed, leading at least one monk to set himself on fire in protest.) I appreciate what you're driving at, I really do as I sit here on my couch in my warm house in one of the most wealthy U. S. suburbs in the country. Easy to do White Guy Suburban Buddhism in that environment. But just because many have it easy doesn't mean it's useless when times are hard.
deleted 7y ago
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jonnycomputer 7y ago
Have you ever tended a garden? practical garden experience makes the answer pretty clear. You don't get angry at the rose bush for not having the roses you desired. You fix the problem, or get rid of the rose bush, or just let it be.
deleted 7y ago
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cambalache 7y ago
The same way you dont hang a hammock in a tree with a feeble trunk or dont sleep below a tree infested with poisonous insects.
gbuk2013 7y ago
You see them for what they are, without emotions and judgement and you do what is right. In your mind, sincerely wish them well. Even if you can do nothing else for them it's OK - you are already doing good in the world. Most people, when they look at life see it through a haze of memories of the past and worries of the future. To be able to see things as they are is the aim of spiritual practice.

nerdponx 7y ago

If a tree is harmful (poison?) or dangerous (about to fall and crush you?) you either cut it down or stay away from it and warn others to stay away from it.

cainxinth 7y ago

I think that quote is describing the fundamental attribution error: "the tendency for people to under-emphasize situational explanations for an individual's observed behavior while over-emphasizing dispositional and personality-based explanations." When you see someone cut you off in traffic, you might instantly assume they are just a born jerk that doesn't care about others, but maybe they are rushing to the hospital.

crazygringo 7y ago

In practice, you deal with the unproductive employee, lying partner, etc. the same way you always have. You still need to protect your own interests and not let people take advantage of you. But it means you don't let it affect you emotionally in the same way. While most people have a kind of internal monologue that goes "why are these people so bad, why is the world wronging me, I didn't do anything to deserve this, why does life suck so bad sometimes, it's all these people's fault" you instead learn to just accept that the world has these people and not to waste emotional angst on them. You deal with them as necessary and then move on internally without anger, hatred, etc.

tonystubblebine 7y ago
I used to lose my shit at underpeforming co-workers all the time and then a more experienced guy pulled me aside and gave me a quote that was intended to do the same thing as Ram Dass's tree quote: "Nobody comes to work to do a bad job." What I realized that judging other people narrowed my vision so that I couldn't see any options. All I could see was that they were bad people who were going to hurt the project. When I could hold off on personalizing other people's performance then I could start to spot other reasons and sometimes even figure out constructive solutions. Maybe the other person is not delivering the code I need because they were given competing priorities. So, yeah, as you say, you still have to deal with these situations. I just found that I could see many more options for how to deal once I stopped being so judgmental.
- DataWorker 7y ago
  If a man is crossing a river And an empty boat collides with his own skiff, Even though he be a bad-tempered man He will not become very angry. But if he sees a man in the boat, He will shout at him to steer clear. If the shout is not heard, he will shout again, And yet again, and begin cursing. And all because there is somebody in the boat. Yet if the boat were empty. He would not be shouting, and not angry. If you can empty your own boat Crossing the river of the world, No one will oppose you, No one will seek to harm you.
  - Jamwinner 7y ago
    If you think someone would hold their tounge because their car got hot by an empty one, i got some youtube compilations to enlighten you.
mistermann 7y ago
> In practice, you deal with the unproductive employee, lying partner, etc. the same way you always have. This is one option, but not the only one. "When you go out into the office, and you look at the landscape, you see all these different employees. And some of them are highly productive and collaborative, and some of them are less so, and some of them are positive high-achievers, and some of them are whatever. And you look at each employee and you allow it. You see [or try to see] why it is the way it is. You sort of understand that they didn’t get enough love or understanding, and so they turned that way. And you don’t get all emotional about it. You just allow it. You appreciate the person." "The minute you get near humans, you lose all that. And you are constantly saying ‘You are too this, or I’m too this.’ That judgment mind comes in. And so I practice turning people into trees. Which means appreciating them just the way they are." I think what Ram is getting at in the last paragraph is something along the lines that, while we can engage with nature in an unassuming, open-minded way, doing the same with other humans is extremely difficult. Due to our lack of control over our own minds, they get up to all sorts of mischief, jumping to unfounded and epistemically unsound conclusions, feeding our conscience minds with a representation of the world that is largely a hallucination. One way of dealing with this in the case of a problem employee, is to talk to them. Easier said than done though of course, because that process is subject to the very same problem, and others.
teddyh 7y ago
> In practice, you deal with the unproductive employee, lying partner, etc. the same way you always have. > But it means you don't let it affect you emotionally in the same way. “When the great doctor D. T. Suzuki was asked what is it like to be enlightened he said, ‘It’s just like ordinary everyday experience, except about two inches off the ground.’” — Alan Watts
np_tedious 7y ago
Spot on! You shouldn't go to bed upset with that lazy/bullshitting coworker, yet you keep your healthy skepticism and protect yourself. And while you aren't "mad" at it, you don't pitch your tent beneath that dying, leaning tree with the exposed roots.

adamsea 7y ago

Just 'cause you appreciate a tree doesn't mean you're going to stand by it if it's about to fall on you.

everdev 7y ago

Many spiritual gurus don't get married, have kids, run companies or live in violent areas. These are some of the most challenging (and potentially rewarding) social structures we have. They test you in deeper, more unexpected ways. While "appreciating what is" is a great general rule, like any world-view it can be limiting. I can imagine it's much easier to follow these concepts when you're safely surrounded by admirers. It's probably much harder to walk into a hostile / life-threatening situation and "appreciate what is".

qazpot 7y ago
> I can imagine it's much easier to follow these concepts when you're safely surrounded by admirers. It's probably much harder to walk into a hostile / life-threatening situation and "appreciate what is". Except a handful of spiritual gurus who get famous, a overwhelming majority is not surrounded by admirers.
mikestew 7y ago
I can imagine it's much easier to follow these concepts when you're safely surrounded by admirers. I can imagine that Vietnamese Buddhist monks of the 60s would share your sentiments. But they, too, could only imagine how much easier it might be. Well, I guess they didn't have to imagine very hard, as it was a lot easier just a few years back. (As background just in case, puppet pro-Catholic government was installed in Vietnam, and the national religion of Buddhism was effectively outlawed, leading at least one monk to set himself on fire in protest.) I appreciate what you're driving at, I really do as I sit here on my couch in my warm house in one of the most wealthy U. S. suburbs in the country. Easy to do White Guy Suburban Buddhism in that environment. But just because many have it easy doesn't mean it's useless when times are hard.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

jonnycomputer 7y ago

Have you ever tended a garden? practical garden experience makes the answer pretty clear. You don't get angry at the rose bush for not having the roses you desired. You fix the problem, or get rid of the rose bush, or just let it be.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

cambalache 7y ago

The same way you dont hang a hammock in a tree with a feeble trunk or dont sleep below a tree infested with poisonous insects.

gbuk2013 7y ago

You see them for what they are, without emotions and judgement and you do what is right. In your mind, sincerely wish them well. Even if you can do nothing else for them it's OK - you are already doing good in the world. Most people, when they look at life see it through a haze of memories of the past and worries of the future. To be able to see things as they are is the aim of spiritual practice.