7 ms·

"As the numbers keep rising, people are asking if it's a reflection of the school system, rather than a problem with the pupils themselves." Got some first han

by Iv 7y ago

"As the numbers keep rising, people are asking if it's a reflection of the school system, rather than a problem with the pupils themselves." Got some first hand experience here. Hard to not be a bit sarcastic. Geeze, I don't know... Is it that the students of Japan are suddenly becoming stubborn (or "weak") or is it that a system that: - does not fight bullying - does not fight racism - does not allow students any free time for any hobby - does recommend to sleep less in order to study more - does not allow to repeat a class and solely looks at date of birth to put kids in a class could, possibly, have some impact on the well-being of kids? But worry not: Japanese TV knows how parents can solve that! It recommends shouting and forcing sport on your lazy stay-at-home kid!

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
whyBother 7y ago
Racism? It's Japan. Whatever racism there could be, it's an extremely small, microscopic particle among the whole of the school system. Even if the incidents are egregious, this is not even among the top twenty reasons that "many" refuse to attend. As far back as the 1980's it was widely reported that Japanese expectations for children's performance and good behavior drive them to mental illness, from the top down, starting with the demands of parents.
- freeflight 7y ago
  > Racism? It's Japan. Whatever racism there could be, it's an extremely small, microscopic particle among the whole of the school system. Racism and discrimination aren't just reserved to the color of skin, it's often built around whole ancestries of groups and their traditional social standings [0]. For the same reason, the Nazis killed people that were just as white as themselves, as most scientific racism [1] went way past defining races merely by the color of skin [2] and anti-Slav sentiments are something very present in many Western European countries to this day. Case in point: The Nazis, and many other white-supremacists, consider themselves to be Aryans, supposedly descendants of the lost continent of Atlantis [3] and apparently the top of their imagined race pyramid. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Untermensch#Etymology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Untermensch#Etymology [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan#Nazism_and_white_supremacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan#Nazism_and_white_suprema...
  - downerending 7y ago
    > Racism and discrimination aren't just reserved to the color of skin, it's often built around whole ancestries of groups and their traditional social standings. Indeed, but this exists everywhere. Why would this factor be unusually influential in Japan?
    - freeflight 7y ago
      It doesn't exist "the same" everywhere, Japanese society is still extremely conservative and hierarchical, to a point that increasingly more people opt for just not taking part at all anymore because they see no more point in grinding their lifes away trough overbearing work ethics and overblown societal expectations. Case in point: Japan has "family rental services" [0] for those people that spend too much time working, thus lacking the time to maintain an actual family. Which is the result of societal expectations along the lines of "A successful businessman also has a successful family". When in reality most struggle to just support themselves, the idea that a single earner can feed a whole household is something that also hasn't applied in Japan for a while anymore. Hikikomori [1] are another, much earlier recognized manifestation of this, that even has somewhat of an equivalent with Western countries "NEETs". The reasons for those are not singular, they are as multifaceted as most social problems are. Racial and class discrimination plays just as much of a factor as the economic downturn, leaving most young Japanese, like young people in many other countries, without much of any perspective. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rental_family_service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rental_family_service [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori
      - downerending 7y ago
        That all seems relevant to the original question, but it doesn't seem to have much (if anything) to do with racism.
        athriren 7y ago
        Racism is present in Japan, the comment that spawned this subthread appeared to be dismissing it as something that had absolutely no explanatory power in this phenomenon and further seemed surprised by Japanese racism as a concept. Here’s the Wikipedia article.[0] Japanese (the nation) citizens of non-Japanese (the ethnic group)[1] suffer discrimination, particularly the indigenous peoples (the Ainu just got formal recognition a decade ago) and people of backgrounds Japan (the nation) has had historical enmity with (Chinese, Korean). Whether or not we can parse specifically what portion of kids not wanting to go to school is due to this, the fact that 30% of non-Japanese ethnicity respondents of a poll conducted by the Justice Ministry said they had experienced hate speech and 40% said they had faced housing discrimination[2] seems like it would absolutely have an impact on the school experiences of those children. This is all limited to the types of racism that are pervasive in Japanese society that a broad portion of the student population may have experienced, but Japan’s particularly strong anti-black sentiment is also notable when discussing racism in Japan more broadly. As to why this might be a particularly strong factor in Japan, as opposed to being some sort of “cosmic background racism” present everywhere, Japanese people’s self-conception of Japan is very tied up in ethnic identity in a somewhat unique way (maybe the prevailing sentiment of Jewish people living in Israel is somewhat similar).[3] Government officials used to talk openly about one culture, one race—when Japan has never really been that and is becoming less so with time. 10% of Tokyo is foreign born, to say nothing of those who were born in Japan of non-Japanese ancestry. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamato_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamato_people [2] https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2018/06/03/commentary/japan-commentary/face-reality-racism-japan/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2018/06/03/commentary/j... [3] https://archive.ph/20070519010856/http://search.japantimes.co.jp/member/member.html?nn20051018a7.htm https://archive.ph/20070519010856/http://search.japantimes.c...
- Iv 7y ago
  I mention racism as only one item on the list. 1 out of 30 children born in Japan today are of mixed ancestry, so it is not as microscopic as you may think. I just have anecdotal evidence. The two kids I know here who regularly skipped school did so because of racist bullying. And yes, hearing "that's your fault because you are a minority" is indicative of a mentality that does not want to fix the problems of people who don't "fit in the mold". "As far back as the 1980's it was widely reported that Japanese expectations for children's performance and good behavior drive them to mental illness" Yes, "good behavior". "Why can't you be like the others?" "Why are you the cause of trouble?" Repeat that every day to any normal kid and they won't want to go to school.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- kilo_bravo_3 7y ago
  >Racism? It's Japan. Perhaps racism isn't the right descriptor. Japan has a caste system that puts India's to shame. It's smaller in the number of people living in the lower tiers, but the effects are amplified to a high degree. At least India puts some effort, futile or not, into forcing representation for its untouchables. In Japan, a member of the untouchable caste is actual, literal, human garbage especially in the western parts of the country. It is illegal for parents to investigate the background of their children's potential marriage partners in order to determine if they are a member of an untouchable caste. Investigations still occur regularly. Anyone who claims that it is not still a problem is either lying, or is a Japan-obsessed foreigner whose impressions of the country are based on a weeklong trip to Tokyo. I'm willing to bet that many of the children refusing to go to school are those with the "wrong" family name.
  - Iv 7y ago
    7 years living in Japan. Both in city and countryside. Never seen anyone being discriminated on a "caste" system. I won't say it does not exist, but it is certainly not on the scale of things in India. However I heard of two marriages kind of broken by parents who did not want a foreigner in their ranks though. Racism does exist and I witnessed several occurrences of it against black people. Whites are generally better received, especially French, like I.
- shermozle 7y ago
  You might want to ask someone with a Korean ancestor about racism in Japan.
thrower123 7y ago
What racism is there to fight in Japan? Are you sure you aren't just pulling stock arguments out here?
- fennecfoxen 7y ago
  Well, there's the one when you're not ethnically Japanese, for a start... not sure how common that is, but dealing with racism is certainly a thing when that happens.
  - microcolonel 7y ago
    Clearly not a problem for the ethnic Japanese refusing to go to school, it seems like it's just been jammed into this ignorant argument from a template.
    - moufestaphio 7y ago
      Goes deeper than just that. There is being born in the wrong 'caste': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin Or the many Koreans who are in 'limbo' (zainichi) after WW2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_Japan
- elhudy 7y ago
  Anecdotally, I visited a friend in Hokkaido for a couple weeks and during my time there (as a white non-Japanese speaking person) I was kicked out of two restaurants upon entry for not being Japanese. Racism exists everywhere.
  - Joe-Z 7y ago
    Yes, racism exists. That was not GP‘s point though. The point was that enough kids in Japan are victims of racism that it gets listed as one of the top reasons why so many pupils don‘t want to go to school anymore. I also highly doubt that there are so many non-Japanese kids in local japanese schools that this is a major problem.
microcolonel 7y ago
> does not allow students any free time for any hobby I don't know about you, but Japanese people who grew up in Japan, in my experience, are the most likely of anyone I've ever known to have active hobbies that they picked up during middle or high school. I don't know of any nationality or ethnic group I'd associate more with having active school-age hobbies. > does not fight racism That may be a problem for those who are from visible minorities, but the majority of the children who are refusing to go to school are broadly ethnic Japanese, or Okinawan. Seems like it'd be low on the list.
- mdorazio 7y ago
  I'm going to go ahead and disagree with your first point entirely unless you have some stats for it. My personal experience has been that Japanese people 1) are no more likely than others to have active hobbies, and 2) largely do not pick up long-term hobbies until college or later in life because their younger years were overburdened with schoolwork.
  - dgzl 7y ago
    I was an exchange student in high school to Japan and I have never seen groups of people more dedicated to both studying and hobbies, especially at the grade-school age. There are private companies that offer study rooms that HS students rent every weekend. Kendo, soccer, baseball and basketball clubs were really huge at the school I was visiting.
    - doublement 7y ago
      The clubs you listed all involve strenuous physical activity... and are clubs. People can pursue them as hobbies, of course, but I think for most people a hobby is something personal, and perhaps pointless, outside of the sound mind/sound body routine. EDIT: Kinda surprised at the downvotes! Is it really so controversial to consider a club activity less of a "real" hobby than something self-organized?
      - 7y ago
dang 7y ago
Unfortunately this just turned into an off topic argument about racism. It's clear that you didn't intend to post flamebait, but fire safety depends on effects, not intentions.

by Iv 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

whyBother 7y ago

Racism? It's Japan. Whatever racism there could be, it's an extremely small, microscopic particle among the whole of the school system. Even if the incidents are egregious, this is not even among the top twenty reasons that "many" refuse to attend. As far back as the 1980's it was widely reported that Japanese expectations for children's performance and good behavior drive them to mental illness, from the top down, starting with the demands of parents.

freeflight 7y ago
> Racism? It's Japan. Whatever racism there could be, it's an extremely small, microscopic particle among the whole of the school system. Racism and discrimination aren't just reserved to the color of skin, it's often built around whole ancestries of groups and their traditional social standings [0]. For the same reason, the Nazis killed people that were just as white as themselves, as most scientific racism [1] went way past defining races merely by the color of skin [2] and anti-Slav sentiments are something very present in many Western European countries to this day. Case in point: The Nazis, and many other white-supremacists, consider themselves to be Aryans, supposedly descendants of the lost continent of Atlantis [3] and apparently the top of their imagined race pyramid. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Untermensch#Etymology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Untermensch#Etymology [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan#Nazism_and_white_supremacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan#Nazism_and_white_suprema...
- downerending 7y ago
  > Racism and discrimination aren't just reserved to the color of skin, it's often built around whole ancestries of groups and their traditional social standings. Indeed, but this exists everywhere. Why would this factor be unusually influential in Japan?
  - freeflight 7y ago
    It doesn't exist "the same" everywhere, Japanese society is still extremely conservative and hierarchical, to a point that increasingly more people opt for just not taking part at all anymore because they see no more point in grinding their lifes away trough overbearing work ethics and overblown societal expectations. Case in point: Japan has "family rental services" [0] for those people that spend too much time working, thus lacking the time to maintain an actual family. Which is the result of societal expectations along the lines of "A successful businessman also has a successful family". When in reality most struggle to just support themselves, the idea that a single earner can feed a whole household is something that also hasn't applied in Japan for a while anymore. Hikikomori [1] are another, much earlier recognized manifestation of this, that even has somewhat of an equivalent with Western countries "NEETs". The reasons for those are not singular, they are as multifaceted as most social problems are. Racial and class discrimination plays just as much of a factor as the economic downturn, leaving most young Japanese, like young people in many other countries, without much of any perspective. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rental_family_service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rental_family_service [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori
    - downerending 7y ago
      That all seems relevant to the original question, but it doesn't seem to have much (if anything) to do with racism.
      - athriren 7y ago
        Racism is present in Japan, the comment that spawned this subthread appeared to be dismissing it as something that had absolutely no explanatory power in this phenomenon and further seemed surprised by Japanese racism as a concept. Here’s the Wikipedia article.[0] Japanese (the nation) citizens of non-Japanese (the ethnic group)[1] suffer discrimination, particularly the indigenous peoples (the Ainu just got formal recognition a decade ago) and people of backgrounds Japan (the nation) has had historical enmity with (Chinese, Korean). Whether or not we can parse specifically what portion of kids not wanting to go to school is due to this, the fact that 30% of non-Japanese ethnicity respondents of a poll conducted by the Justice Ministry said they had experienced hate speech and 40% said they had faced housing discrimination[2] seems like it would absolutely have an impact on the school experiences of those children. This is all limited to the types of racism that are pervasive in Japanese society that a broad portion of the student population may have experienced, but Japan’s particularly strong anti-black sentiment is also notable when discussing racism in Japan more broadly. As to why this might be a particularly strong factor in Japan, as opposed to being some sort of “cosmic background racism” present everywhere, Japanese people’s self-conception of Japan is very tied up in ethnic identity in a somewhat unique way (maybe the prevailing sentiment of Jewish people living in Israel is somewhat similar).[3] Government officials used to talk openly about one culture, one race—when Japan has never really been that and is becoming less so with time. 10% of Tokyo is foreign born, to say nothing of those who were born in Japan of non-Japanese ancestry. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamato_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamato_people [2] https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2018/06/03/commentary/japan-commentary/face-reality-racism-japan/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2018/06/03/commentary/j... [3] https://archive.ph/20070519010856/http://search.japantimes.co.jp/member/member.html?nn20051018a7.htm https://archive.ph/20070519010856/http://search.japantimes.c...
Iv 7y ago
I mention racism as only one item on the list. 1 out of 30 children born in Japan today are of mixed ancestry, so it is not as microscopic as you may think. I just have anecdotal evidence. The two kids I know here who regularly skipped school did so because of racist bullying. And yes, hearing "that's your fault because you are a minority" is indicative of a mentality that does not want to fix the problems of people who don't "fit in the mold". "As far back as the 1980's it was widely reported that Japanese expectations for children's performance and good behavior drive them to mental illness" Yes, "good behavior". "Why can't you be like the others?" "Why are you the cause of trouble?" Repeat that every day to any normal kid and they won't want to go to school.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
kilo_bravo_3 7y ago
>Racism? It's Japan. Perhaps racism isn't the right descriptor. Japan has a caste system that puts India's to shame. It's smaller in the number of people living in the lower tiers, but the effects are amplified to a high degree. At least India puts some effort, futile or not, into forcing representation for its untouchables. In Japan, a member of the untouchable caste is actual, literal, human garbage especially in the western parts of the country. It is illegal for parents to investigate the background of their children's potential marriage partners in order to determine if they are a member of an untouchable caste. Investigations still occur regularly. Anyone who claims that it is not still a problem is either lying, or is a Japan-obsessed foreigner whose impressions of the country are based on a weeklong trip to Tokyo. I'm willing to bet that many of the children refusing to go to school are those with the "wrong" family name.
- Iv 7y ago
  7 years living in Japan. Both in city and countryside. Never seen anyone being discriminated on a "caste" system. I won't say it does not exist, but it is certainly not on the scale of things in India. However I heard of two marriages kind of broken by parents who did not want a foreigner in their ranks though. Racism does exist and I witnessed several occurrences of it against black people. Whites are generally better received, especially French, like I.
shermozle 7y ago
You might want to ask someone with a Korean ancestor about racism in Japan.

thrower123 7y ago

What racism is there to fight in Japan? Are you sure you aren't just pulling stock arguments out here?

fennecfoxen 7y ago
Well, there's the one when you're not ethnically Japanese, for a start... not sure how common that is, but dealing with racism is certainly a thing when that happens.
- microcolonel 7y ago
  Clearly not a problem for the ethnic Japanese refusing to go to school, it seems like it's just been jammed into this ignorant argument from a template.
  - moufestaphio 7y ago
    Goes deeper than just that. There is being born in the wrong 'caste': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin Or the many Koreans who are in 'limbo' (zainichi) after WW2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_Japan
elhudy 7y ago
Anecdotally, I visited a friend in Hokkaido for a couple weeks and during my time there (as a white non-Japanese speaking person) I was kicked out of two restaurants upon entry for not being Japanese. Racism exists everywhere.
- Joe-Z 7y ago
  Yes, racism exists. That was not GP‘s point though. The point was that enough kids in Japan are victims of racism that it gets listed as one of the top reasons why so many pupils don‘t want to go to school anymore. I also highly doubt that there are so many non-Japanese kids in local japanese schools that this is a major problem.

microcolonel 7y ago

> does not allow students any free time for any hobby I don't know about you, but Japanese people who grew up in Japan, in my experience, are the most likely of anyone I've ever known to have active hobbies that they picked up during middle or high school. I don't know of any nationality or ethnic group I'd associate more with having active school-age hobbies. > does not fight racism That may be a problem for those who are from visible minorities, but the majority of the children who are refusing to go to school are broadly ethnic Japanese, or Okinawan. Seems like it'd be low on the list.

mdorazio 7y ago
I'm going to go ahead and disagree with your first point entirely unless you have some stats for it. My personal experience has been that Japanese people 1) are no more likely than others to have active hobbies, and 2) largely do not pick up long-term hobbies until college or later in life because their younger years were overburdened with schoolwork.
- dgzl 7y ago
  I was an exchange student in high school to Japan and I have never seen groups of people more dedicated to both studying and hobbies, especially at the grade-school age. There are private companies that offer study rooms that HS students rent every weekend. Kendo, soccer, baseball and basketball clubs were really huge at the school I was visiting.
  - doublement 7y ago
    The clubs you listed all involve strenuous physical activity... and are clubs. People can pursue them as hobbies, of course, but I think for most people a hobby is something personal, and perhaps pointless, outside of the sound mind/sound body routine. EDIT: Kinda surprised at the downvotes! Is it really so controversial to consider a club activity less of a "real" hobby than something self-organized?
    - 7y ago

dang 7y ago

Unfortunately this just turned into an off topic argument about racism. It's clear that you didn't intend to post flamebait, but fire safety depends on effects, not intentions.