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It is possible to imagine a potential casual process that leads to earlier death. What if pessimism creates a constant presence of key stress hormones (Adrenali

by has2k1 7y ago

It is possible to imagine a potential casual process that leads to earlier death. What if pessimism creates a constant presence of key stress hormones (Adrenaline, Cortisol and Norepinephrine) and these are already linked to higher likelihoods of heart disease, cancer, ...

trevyn 7y ago
Or maybe it’s acausal — some fires burn brighter, but they know that they will die sooner.
wozniacki 7y ago
I'm sure it would seem like there is a link between the two somewhere, even if it is very threadbare or even spurious for that matter. More principally, these things just seem very believable because being optimistic is just a positive attribute that society rewards and approves of much more than it does pessimism (some would say being pessimistic is almost an universal negative, some outlier societies notwithstanding). This imparts a definite bias in the believability of the study, no matter what the findings of the study actually are - even if the study were to only indicate a mild association between being optimistic and longevity. Just consider the findings of a study from some years ago: "High social status has its privileges when it comes to aging – even in wild animals." ... “High-ranking members in hyena clans reproduce more, they live longer and appear to be in better overall health,” said Nora Lewin, MSU doctoral student of zoology and co-lead author. “If you want to see the hierarchy of spotted hyenas, throw down some fresh meat near them. It’s quickly apparent who’s dominant and who’s not.” ... Lewin and her teammates focused on telomeres, caps at the end of each strand of DNA that protect chromosomes from deterioration. These biomarkers are regarded as important signs of aging and stress in many species, including humans. Shrinking telomeres are a signal that cells are sliding into defensive mode, stressful actions that could soon lead to cells’ – and to the organism’s – death. “This work shows, for the first time, the effects of social rank on telomere length in wild mammals,” Lewin said. “This enhances our understanding of how social and ecological variables may contribute to age-related declines of hyenas, and in organisms in general.”[1] High social status humans live longer lives is the natural assumption here even if the suggestion is only mild. Such stuff seems more believable due to a chain of assumptions about - low status mammals, stress levels, food security, likelihood of physical harm etc. Its safe to assume those, it would seem - however light the actual evidence for it. There are scores of studies like this with very light suggestive conclusions yet the believability is high. I just wish these things are fleshed out with a lot more rigor and thoroughness by the science journalists or journalists at large. This isn't trivial, easily ignored stuff. These things have real world consequences if true. Very palpable, sizable and profound consequences on people's lives. [1] Social Status Has Impact On Overall Health of Mammals https://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2015/social-status-has-impact-on-overall-health-of-mammals/ https://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2015/social-status-has-impact-...
- has2k1 7y ago
  Thanks for the excerpt of the study, it is interesting. As persistent stress causes visible signs of aging, for example the seemingly accelerated growth of gray hair and wrinkles of U.S presidents, it is not big a leap to suspect more.
JamesBarney 7y ago
Sure. But every single study like this goes to an RCT finds causation runs the other way.
rzzzt 7y ago
What if the constant presence of stress hormones makes people more prone to pessimism?
- AmericanChopper 7y ago
  What if pessimists are less likely to engage in self-preserving or self-improving behaviour (because why bother), creating a self-sustaining negative feedback loop?
  - rzzzt 7y ago
    Yes.
- BurningFrog 7y ago
  Not the optimistic angle we're trying to foster here!
- achenatx 7y ago
  Anecdotally, Ive been very fortunate to have a positive brain chemistry. When bad things have happened, my brain pretty much doesn't worry on them. Eventually things work out (or something good eventually happens) and I get through the bad times. There is no way to explain or describe this positive brain chemistry in a way that anyone can believe. But since I was a kid, my parents have been worried that Im too happy as they know dissatisfaction is what drives people to achieve. They would say things like "your only problem is you are too happy". I havent lived to 85 yet though, so who knows.
  - Gravityloss 7y ago
    I do annoying things to avoid bad things from happening in the future. If one is very optimistic, then one would not believe the bad things would happen and thus one would not be very motivated to do the annoying things. For example do you wear a seat belt or brush your teeth? I know the questions may sound a bit offensive but I'm honestly interested in hearing people's motivations.

by has2k1 7y ago

trevyn 7y ago

Or maybe it’s acausal — some fires burn brighter, but they know that they will die sooner.

wozniacki 7y ago

I'm sure it would seem like there is a link between the two somewhere, even if it is very threadbare or even spurious for that matter. More principally, these things just seem very believable because being optimistic is just a positive attribute that society rewards and approves of much more than it does pessimism (some would say being pessimistic is almost an universal negative, some outlier societies notwithstanding). This imparts a definite bias in the believability of the study, no matter what the findings of the study actually are - even if the study were to only indicate a mild association between being optimistic and longevity. Just consider the findings of a study from some years ago: "High social status has its privileges when it comes to aging – even in wild animals." ... “High-ranking members in hyena clans reproduce more, they live longer and appear to be in better overall health,” said Nora Lewin, MSU doctoral student of zoology and co-lead author. “If you want to see the hierarchy of spotted hyenas, throw down some fresh meat near them. It’s quickly apparent who’s dominant and who’s not.” ... Lewin and her teammates focused on telomeres, caps at the end of each strand of DNA that protect chromosomes from deterioration. These biomarkers are regarded as important signs of aging and stress in many species, including humans. Shrinking telomeres are a signal that cells are sliding into defensive mode, stressful actions that could soon lead to cells’ – and to the organism’s – death. “This work shows, for the first time, the effects of social rank on telomere length in wild mammals,” Lewin said. “This enhances our understanding of how social and ecological variables may contribute to age-related declines of hyenas, and in organisms in general.”[1] High social status humans live longer lives is the natural assumption here even if the suggestion is only mild. Such stuff seems more believable due to a chain of assumptions about - low status mammals, stress levels, food security, likelihood of physical harm etc. Its safe to assume those, it would seem - however light the actual evidence for it. There are scores of studies like this with very light suggestive conclusions yet the believability is high. I just wish these things are fleshed out with a lot more rigor and thoroughness by the science journalists or journalists at large. This isn't trivial, easily ignored stuff. These things have real world consequences if true. Very palpable, sizable and profound consequences on people's lives. [1] Social Status Has Impact On Overall Health of Mammals https://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2015/social-status-has-impact-on-overall-health-of-mammals/ https://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2015/social-status-has-impact-...

has2k1 7y ago
Thanks for the excerpt of the study, it is interesting. As persistent stress causes visible signs of aging, for example the seemingly accelerated growth of gray hair and wrinkles of U.S presidents, it is not big a leap to suspect more.

JamesBarney 7y ago

Sure. But every single study like this goes to an RCT finds causation runs the other way.

rzzzt 7y ago

What if the constant presence of stress hormones makes people more prone to pessimism?

AmericanChopper 7y ago
What if pessimists are less likely to engage in self-preserving or self-improving behaviour (because why bother), creating a self-sustaining negative feedback loop?
- rzzzt 7y ago
  Yes.
BurningFrog 7y ago
Not the optimistic angle we're trying to foster here!
achenatx 7y ago
Anecdotally, Ive been very fortunate to have a positive brain chemistry. When bad things have happened, my brain pretty much doesn't worry on them. Eventually things work out (or something good eventually happens) and I get through the bad times. There is no way to explain or describe this positive brain chemistry in a way that anyone can believe. But since I was a kid, my parents have been worried that Im too happy as they know dissatisfaction is what drives people to achieve. They would say things like "your only problem is you are too happy". I havent lived to 85 yet though, so who knows.
- Gravityloss 7y ago
  I do annoying things to avoid bad things from happening in the future. If one is very optimistic, then one would not believe the bad things would happen and thus one would not be very motivated to do the annoying things. For example do you wear a seat belt or brush your teeth? I know the questions may sound a bit offensive but I'm honestly interested in hearing people's motivations.