10 ms·
Microdosing LSD for Alzheimer’s proves safe in early human trial
- pmoriarty 7y agoThe most interesting thing about this study for me is that they're actually studying LSD at all. For years now, the main psychedelics that were studied in clinical trials were psylocibin and MDMA, partially because LSD was deemed to have too large a stigma attached to it from years of negative media exposure. Now I guess we've moved beyond that. What would be really interesting is some studies of the people who are in positions of authority to approve or disapprove such studies. What are their attitudes towards drugs in general and various psychedelics in particular? I guess we're seeing indirect evidence of their attitudes in the approval of such studies, but it would be interesting to see more direct and comprehensive evidence.
- Alex3917 7y ago> partially because LSD was deemed to have too large a stigma attached to it from years of negative media exposure Partially, but the main reason is that it’s too expensive to run studies where you need to pay people overtime to be there for 16 hour days.
- bagacrap 7y agoI don't think this is a factor for microdosing studies.
- dotancohen 7y agoThe effects of LSD seem to persist for similar amounts of time independent of dosage. The drug has a halflife for urine and blood sample detection, but that does not affect the time that the user feels the effects of the drug. https://www.popsci.com/lsd-gets-stuck-in-brains-receptors-serotonin/ https://www.popsci.com/lsd-gets-stuck-in-brains-receptors-se...
- Alex3917 7y ago> I don't think this is a factor for microdosing studies. It's still illegal for folks to drive home with LSD in their system even if it isn't impairing them, so I'd think this would be a challenge in getting IRB approvals.
- birdyrooster 7y agoThere are medical limo services specifically for this, but I concede they get very pricey.
- DaiPlusPlus 7y ago> What would be really interesting is some studies of the people who are in positions of authority to approve or disapprove such studies. What are their attitudes towards drugs in general and various psychedelics in particular? One thing I've learned about people over the years is that they rarely change, even in the face of evidence and solid persuasion - I speculate the reason these studies are being approved more now today than before is not because of reasoned policymaking, but simply one of demographic shift in the public-sector: Those who bought-in to the anti-psychedelic hysteria of the 1960s will have almost entirely aged themselves out of the DEA, university research oversight boards, and the pharma industry. In fact, as members of Gen X themselves are _aging-in_ to positions of power and decision-making we'll see things start to open-up.
- aasasd 7y agoOr, as Max Planck succinctly put it: “A new scientific truth does not generally triumph by persuading its opponents and getting them to admit their errors, but rather by its opponents gradually dying out and giving way to a new generation that is raised on it.”
- BurningFrog 7y agoOften summarized as "Science advances one funeral at a time".
- DaiPlusPlus 7y ago_Society_ advances one funeral at a time. ...and that's just depressing :(
- LocalH 7y agoThat's really just the cycle of life forcing itself on us whether we like it or not. Sometimes humans collectively forget that we're biological entities first and foremost, with all the limitations and imperfections that come with that. Possibly, the most damaging human trait is arrogance. It causes us to get trapped inside a box, unable to look outside for other approaches.
- rahuldottech 7y agoReply All did an episode on microdosing on LSD, and its effects/benefits: https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/2oh933/ https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/2oh933/
- bransonf 7y agoI’m skeptical, though I must admit that I’m not a subject matter expert. The disruption of serotonergic pathways probably isn’t something that can be amended by a serotonergic therapy. I’d actually predict that individuals with Alzheimer’s would experience a diminished effect when taking LSD. My bias here is more broad. I’m of the belief that the cure to Alzheimer’s is more likely biological than it is chemical. Not overlooking the interoperability of these two things, but rather suggesting that it’s probably a problem that requires a more sophisticated treatment than purely consuming a drug. That said, I’m very excited to see microdosing being studied and interested in the outcomes of this trial, whatever they may be. Certainly, the results here could tell us something we haven’t yet discovered about LSD or Alzheimer’s, even if there is no therapeutic application in this case.
- MagnumPIG 7y agoWith regard to treatment, what are you basing your belief on? Plenty of diseases can be halted or cured with chemicals.
- ekianjo 7y agoThe numerous trials with "chemicals" that had absolutely no effect on Alzheimer so far. It is not for lack of trying at this stage.
- bransonf 7y agoOf the research I’ve read, many scientists suggest that it’s the accumulation of plaques that cause Alzheimer’s.[0] There’s uncertainty as to what protein is responsible for the degenerative effects.[1] My bias exists for the fact that I believe the cure to Alzheimer’s is removing or preventing the development of this plaque. At least I’ve been lead to believe this is among the most promising cures.[2] Amyloid protein is particularly tricky because it’s insoluble. I don’t think we could develop a purely chemical solution for the fact that it would likely be destructive to our own biology. And I think both gene expression and enzyme production are unlikely to be able to changed with just a drug. [0] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/03/180326161000.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/03/180326161000.h... [1] https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/05/tau-protein-not-amyloid-may-be-key-driver-alzheimer-s-symptoms https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/05/tau-protein-not-amyl... [2] https://rupress.org/jem/article/215/3/927/42616/BACE1-deletion-in-the-adult-mouse-reverses https://rupress.org/jem/article/215/3/927/42616/BACE1-deleti...
- adamnemecek 7y agoYes, LSD needs to be legalized. I can and will do whatever drugs I want, fuck the moralists.
- zahrc 7y agoTreating major and life-changing diseases like Alzheimer’s and epilepsy is completely different from legalising drugs for partying and tripping. Calling other moralists with negative intent, because they disagree with you is not very constructive and contributing to anything. Critics of certain drugs do certainly have good reasoning. LSD may not be as damaging as alcohol, heroin or crystal meth, but it’s certainly proven to boost psychosis episodes.
- AngryData 7y agoI don't find it good reasoning, pretty much all drugs can exasperate mental health issues. It doesn't make people violent or dangerous, I would consider alcohol far more dangerous than LSD.
- ianai 7y agoI’m for changing the prohibition laws just to bankrupt the drug cartels. The dark market is the main problem. It’s why alcohol prohibition was undone.
- Throw_Away_5482 7y agoAlcohol can't give you psychosis after taking it only one time (or it is at least far less likely. It also can't give you persistent hallucinations[1] or permanently change your personality[2]. (In most cases these changes may appear positive, but there is probably potential for negative personality changes, too.) [1]: https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/09/11/lots-of-people-going-around-with-mild-hallucinations-all-the-time/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/09/11/lots-of-people-going-a... [2]: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00213-017-4733-3 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00213-017-4733-3
- 7y ago
- GuB-42 7y agoJust as a side note for those who think that it is the first step in recognizing the benefits of microdosing for healthy people, that study shows nothing. First, it just shows that it is safe. It is expected, LSD is one of the safest drugs out there. I don't think there is a single verifiable instance of someone dying from LSD poisoning, even considering massive overdoses. And because we are talking microdoses, it is not like people are going to experience traumatizing bad trips. The real question is whether microdosing LSD is better than a placebo and we don't have the answer yet. And even if it is, the goal here is to treat Alzheimer patients, and that LSD proves effective doesn't mean healthy people will get benefits. A good example would be ADHD, which is treated using amphetamines. While these drugs will make healthy people high and overexcited, it will help ADHD patients calm down and focus. I am very happy that LSD gets some serious attention, but it doesn't mean it is some kind of panacea.
- ghostcluster 7y ago> While these drugs will make healthy people high and overexcited, it will help ADHD patients calm down and focus. It is my understanding that nootropics like Adderall are widely used outside of the ADHD-diagnosed population for their use in boosting productivity tasks in otherwise-healthy adults (see their popular use by students at colleges), and also for their high.
- peteretep 7y agoIt’s strange to me to hear speed described as a nootropic, although I note that Wikipedia does list it as one. If amphetamine are a nootropic, does cocaine count?
- ses1984 7y agoI thought nootropics were supposed to have positive long-term physiological benefits. Amphetamine is a performance enhancer and maybe even a cognitive enhancer (evidence says otherwise) but it's definitely not nootropic.
- outime 7y agoFor those skeptical of psychedelics being used for anything but recreational situations, I recommend a recent book How to Change Your Mind by Michael Pollan. The author goes through the story of different psychedelics (including LSD) and shows how impressive some of the experiences and studies are. It did change my view completely. This article [1] also summarizes how close we are to use them for medical purposes. [1] https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/psychedelic-medicine-is-coming-the-law-isnt-ready/ https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/psychedeli...
- ydb 7y agoI highly recommend to anyone that has not tried it: do LSD whenever you are given the chance. Preferably, as in Leary's timeless wisdom, it takes place in a "good setting and setting." However, this ought not to disturb you. Make sure you have friends around for your first time, some favorite tunes to listen to, and maybe even a hiking trail to mosey on through. That's all you need really. I understand that microdosing is fashionable (aha that pg advice comes in handy right away) but doing large proper "acid trip dood" amounts of LSD is also quite beneficial too. It's like psilocybin, for anybody who's done mushrooms but not LSD, yet distinct in its very own manner. Can be both zany and lucid perfectly simultaneously. However, all that high (hah) praise noted, I want to warn that this is best avoided for those with a family history of schizophrenia. It is a well-documented fact that psychedelics can trigger latent mental illnesses, especially schizophrenia.
- anewguy9000 7y agothe study demonstrsted safety, not effectiveness; which is ironic, because the safety of lsd is well established, while the effectiveness of anything to treat alzheimers is not.
- tempsy 7y agoand a story about a YouTube engineer who took LSD over the summer and freaked out and nearly killed/ran over a bunch of people https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/davidmack/youtube-engineer-lsd-rampage-arrested https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/davidmack/youtube-engin...
- enragedcacti 7y agoIf you think that's crazy check out this drug that caused almost 11,000 vehicle deaths last year: https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving And it's still legal!!!
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- tempsy 7y agoyou can still make decisions while under influence of alcohol. With LSD you lose “control” with a full dose, so bad trips can make people highly unpredictable in ways that isn’t true about alcohol. That’s my point.
- npo9 7y agoAlcohol can make people highly unpredictable and violent.
- jakeinspace 7y agoSure most people with a few drinks are fairly predictable (although their reaction times drop quickly). But many people get blackout drunk all the time, and that leads to incredibly erratic behavior.
- kev009 7y agoHave you ever used alcohol or seen the affects it causes on others? I'm not advocating for or against either drug but this is a most unusual opinion, it sounds like you are describing alcohol to a tee in some gaslighting way.
- aiphex 7y agoDisappointing to see some of the comments. I'm thinking a number of posters here haven't tried hallucinogens...
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- hart_russell 7y agoI have a good friend who tried mushrooms for the first time. He went completely psychotic. We had to call police/emt to subdue him. Ended up tied down to a gurney until he sobered up in the hospital for a couple hours. Psychedelic are NOT for everyone. It is dangerous to suggest they are.
- c0nducktr 7y agoI can't imagine the police helping in that situation at all.
- aphextim 7y agoOne time this 'guru' told me, "That is what happens when you try to put a 6 cylinder drug into a 4 cylinder mind." when referring to someone at a festival who lost their shit. Granted it could have been a bad dose, but when everyone else around them was fine, it typically is the user who was not ready for the experience or had some underlying issues they were not dealing with, and when you take these types of drugs you don't have a choice but to deal with it. Sadly the police/emt way of dealing with it probably caused more trauma than anything but I understand their reasoning in doing what they did. When someone is trying these types of substances for the first time it is a good idea to make sure they are in a good frame of mind, have a few people guiding them on their journey. If you decide to randomly take mushrooms for the first time in an environment where not everyone is on the same level as you and you have no one to guide you through your journey, you are going to have a bad time.
- aiphex 7y agoI like that 'guru' quote. When it comes to the trip. I always hear about the 'have a sober friend, or a trip buddy, etc' I've never thought this was the best idea. I think it could be worse for someone in a bad state to have to deal with other people. Let a person be by themselves. Chances are they will just sit there and go through the corridors of their mind. There may be sheer terror, and at some point there will hopefully (likely) be peace and euphoria. If nothing else it will wear off in a handful of hours and if they were just sitting by themselves then they can hopefully shake it off and get on with things. I think it's dealing with other people that could raise the situation to unstable levels.
- anaisbetts 7y agoIf you're reading this and thinking about trying microdosing, let me summarize for you - unless you have chronic depression or anxiety, this isn't really worth it. You'll have a harder time actually focusing and getting work done. If you do have chronic depression / anxiety though, and it's affecting your life in a persistently detrimental way, it might be a really effective Aspirin against it (i.e. it's not going to Cure it, but it will relieve it). LSD does this by interrupting Rumination, the shitty thoughts in the very back of your mind that loop during depression / anxiety. Breaking this cycle lets you have some relief, and might help you get your head above water enough that you can start to address some of the Bigger Problems, without some of the pretty significant drawbacks of SSRIs (as well as working nearly instantly, as opposed to having a month+ ramp-up)
- dylan604 7y agoThe looping of shitty thoughts is the exact thing I have to fight against in a psychedelic state. It's weird how things like this seem to work out. Giving speed to a person with attention issues, yet to a normal person it makes their thoughts run rampant.
- OGWhales 7y agoI always thought it was curious seeing a friend with ADHD taking adderall seemed to calm him while it had the opposite effect on me.
- pmoriarty 7y agoBy definition, microdosing is taking a sub-perceptual dose. So if you're noticing any effect, like having a hard time focusing, you're taking more than a microdose.
- mlyle 7y agoSub-perceptual in what sense? In escalating order... You can't tell any obvious distortion in your perception of reality? [This is the meaning I usually hear discussed]. You can't look back over the past day and say "hm, that was different from when I was not dosed-- I was a little less effective". You can't tell any difference over the past 6 mos of microdosing? You can't tell any difference between a microdosed and placebo group in an RCT? There is no difference at all between microdosed and placebo in reality? In the end, if we can't notice some difference somehow, why bother? ;)
- danielovichdk 7y agoNo matter how you spin this, the vast majority of people get depressed from environmental settings and long periods of stress. Very people are born with a depressed mind. For me, this is treating symptoms where we should focus on curing the fucking reasons why people get so depressed. Sure, let's eat some more drugs - like we don't eat enoigh of that shit. The whole notion of taking drugs to become sane is fucking insane and ridicoulos. Sleep, workout, and eat properly. For the people that are real sick with depression - I feel with you, I really do! And if LSD helps those people, or any other drug does, just go onboard.
- DoofusOfDeath 7y agoI don't think we've historically lacked motivation alpng those lines. AFAIK humans have been trying to address the valid reasons to be depressed for (at least) thousands of years. We've also been ingesting chemicals as a temporary hack for about as long.
- ausbah 7y agoSleep, exercise, and proper nutrition won't solve long term sources of stress or depression stemming from environmental settings. Yes they are excellent habits to have, but I'd wager they only make the symptoms of the aforementioned issues slightly easier to deal with. I'd argue you probably need to have more widescale societal and cultural reforms to get rid of the sources of most of those problems. Substantially better healthcare and higher education to reduce loan burdens, shorter working hours and commutes to have more time to spend with family and friends, etx.