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> But what I want to point out is that revoking something that was once promised to users [with] ridiculous explanations.. How do you back out of a bad promise

> But what I want to point out is that revoking something that was once promised to users [with] ridiculous explanations.. How do you back out of a bad promise made in good faith?

Fjolsvith 7y ago
Bankruptcy.
devit 7y ago
I think declaring bankruptcy is the only legal option in general, although refunding the price paid might be fine as well in some cases. Of course you could also have made a promise with a provision for what happens in case you want to back out (typically with some sort of compensation if appropriate).
NeedMoreTea 7y ago
Honour your promises, or [hopefully] die under the weight of lost court cases... A bad promise made in good faith is still going to surely put you in breach of trading contract when you renege?
- lonelappde 7y ago
  A hundred successful Kickstart frauds for each one that gets punished says no.
- unreal37 7y ago
  The app was $2.99 so I am not sure there will be any court cases for breach of contract. Just public shame.
ljm 7y ago
I don’t think that selling a ‘lifetime’ license is the same as offering lifetime support and bug fixes. Your license would be for a version of the software and I’d expect a year or two of support from that, just as the standard guarantee consumers have when buying physical goods. I don’t think it’d be that controversial to release a new version of the app with a different pricing model while offering a fair upgrade path to existing users. Only this version would be available on the App Store. They can choose not to upgrade and the old app will still work just fine. Keeping the servers up for that would be the cost of doing business. This is more or less what 1Password have done. All their old versions are still usable, you still have the license for an old version because you bought it. Each upgrade is basically an entirely different release that you can subscribe to or pay for. Cerberus have fucked up by pulling the rug from underneath everyone and revoking their licenses, making the software they bought unusable. And as a word to the wise, maybe don’t think about making lifetime or ‘free forever’ promises. They’re totally unrealistic.
- lonelappde 7y ago
  Lifetime is fine if you hold enough budget to give refunds when you change your mind.
- quantum_magpie 7y ago
  1password operates on subscription model. From their support (https://support.1password.com/frozen-account/ https://support.1password.com/frozen-account/): You received this message because your 1Password subscription has lapsed. While your account is frozen, you can still view all your items, copy your passwords, and even copy items to vaults outside your account. But you won’t be able to: Add new items to vaults Edit items Invite people to your family or team Fill items in your browser It becomes a read-only list of your passwords, instead of providing ongoing service at a fixed version of the software (unlike JetBrains IDEs, where you actually keep fully operational version of the IDE at the latest version you qualified for).
  - iudqnolq 7y ago
    I think they're referring to the switch from a one time payment to a subscription. Everyone who bought at the one-time price got to keep their desktop application forever. You're apparently asking for a web application to keep working after you stop paying, which I find different.
pgeorgi 7y ago
What other app developers did in similar situations (seen a couple of time with transitions from free to paid): create a new app in the same space but with the new (hopefully more sustainable) terms, stop providing new licenses to the old app, put the old app the back burner (basic maintenance only, no feature development), hope that the business transitions over. That upholds the promise (you still get whatever you paid for at some point) better than the other legal alternative (shutting down the app entirely, which ends the "lifetime"). If you want to get rid of the dead weight, and it doesn't happen organically, periodically offer specials for customers of the old app to transition to the new one. What you should never do: take something that is "lifetime" and make it expire. That only demonstrates that you're not trustworthy.
- lonelappde 7y ago
  That's still skeezy, but in a suble way. A "lifetime subscription" is different from "no maintenance" license, as the subscription costs mote. Changing the terms after closing the deal by renaming the app ought to be illegal. The only valid thing to do is to refund the purchase price. Either all of it, or at the very least the difference between price paid and how much is would have cost to buy the pay as you go license up til now, plus a consolation bonus.
  - pgeorgi 7y ago
    Lifetime of the product. Given such constraints I would seriously consider just starting different projects and let that app die a slow, painful death by having the ecosystem around it move forward. Yes, the app will be functional on Android 8 in 2039 - if you can still find a functional Android 8 device then (after the epoch roll-over). Basic maintenance helps the app move forward to Android 30 (or whatever is current then), letting you enjoy precisely the features you've bought back in 2017, so to me that seems to be strictly better. (I exaggerated version numbers and dates to take in the epoch roll-over issue as an outside-anybody's-responsibility issue with an ancient base OS: https://www.quora.com/What-will-happen-to-a-64-bit-Android-device-in-2038-because-of-the-Y2K38-problem https://www.quora.com/What-will-happen-to-a-64-bit-Android-d..., but the same scenario also applies when talking about supporting whatever base OS of 2022 and the ways it will or will not be compatible to today's apps)
hutzlibu 7y ago
With honesty. But in this case the promise was not made in good faith, promising lifetime while expecting and planning couple of years max. Would qualify as fraud to me.
tgsovlerkhgsel 7y ago
You don't. Those users helped bootstrap the company; you deliver the service at the level you promised as long as you're able to. If you didn't promise free updates/upgrades, you then can sell additional premium services only available to people who voluntarily upgrade to a package that pays more. The very least that a company that wants to go back on the promise would have to do would be full refunds. It would still be wrong, but the fact that they aren't even giving those out (automatically on cancellation, without asking) shows the lack of good faith.

> But what I want to point out is that revoking something that was once promised to users [with] ridiculous explanations.. How do you back out of a bad promise made in good faith?

Fjolsvith 7y ago

Bankruptcy.

devit 7y ago

I think declaring bankruptcy is the only legal option in general, although refunding the price paid might be fine as well in some cases. Of course you could also have made a promise with a provision for what happens in case you want to back out (typically with some sort of compensation if appropriate).

NeedMoreTea 7y ago

Honour your promises, or [hopefully] die under the weight of lost court cases... A bad promise made in good faith is still going to surely put you in breach of trading contract when you renege?

lonelappde 7y ago
A hundred successful Kickstart frauds for each one that gets punished says no.
unreal37 7y ago
The app was $2.99 so I am not sure there will be any court cases for breach of contract. Just public shame.

ljm 7y ago

I don’t think that selling a ‘lifetime’ license is the same as offering lifetime support and bug fixes. Your license would be for a version of the software and I’d expect a year or two of support from that, just as the standard guarantee consumers have when buying physical goods. I don’t think it’d be that controversial to release a new version of the app with a different pricing model while offering a fair upgrade path to existing users. Only this version would be available on the App Store. They can choose not to upgrade and the old app will still work just fine. Keeping the servers up for that would be the cost of doing business. This is more or less what 1Password have done. All their old versions are still usable, you still have the license for an old version because you bought it. Each upgrade is basically an entirely different release that you can subscribe to or pay for. Cerberus have fucked up by pulling the rug from underneath everyone and revoking their licenses, making the software they bought unusable. And as a word to the wise, maybe don’t think about making lifetime or ‘free forever’ promises. They’re totally unrealistic.

lonelappde 7y ago
Lifetime is fine if you hold enough budget to give refunds when you change your mind.
quantum_magpie 7y ago
1password operates on subscription model. From their support (https://support.1password.com/frozen-account/ https://support.1password.com/frozen-account/): You received this message because your 1Password subscription has lapsed. While your account is frozen, you can still view all your items, copy your passwords, and even copy items to vaults outside your account. But you won’t be able to: Add new items to vaults Edit items Invite people to your family or team Fill items in your browser It becomes a read-only list of your passwords, instead of providing ongoing service at a fixed version of the software (unlike JetBrains IDEs, where you actually keep fully operational version of the IDE at the latest version you qualified for).
- iudqnolq 7y ago
  I think they're referring to the switch from a one time payment to a subscription. Everyone who bought at the one-time price got to keep their desktop application forever. You're apparently asking for a web application to keep working after you stop paying, which I find different.

pgeorgi 7y ago

What other app developers did in similar situations (seen a couple of time with transitions from free to paid): create a new app in the same space but with the new (hopefully more sustainable) terms, stop providing new licenses to the old app, put the old app the back burner (basic maintenance only, no feature development), hope that the business transitions over. That upholds the promise (you still get whatever you paid for at some point) better than the other legal alternative (shutting down the app entirely, which ends the "lifetime"). If you want to get rid of the dead weight, and it doesn't happen organically, periodically offer specials for customers of the old app to transition to the new one. What you should never do: take something that is "lifetime" and make it expire. That only demonstrates that you're not trustworthy.

lonelappde 7y ago
That's still skeezy, but in a suble way. A "lifetime subscription" is different from "no maintenance" license, as the subscription costs mote. Changing the terms after closing the deal by renaming the app ought to be illegal. The only valid thing to do is to refund the purchase price. Either all of it, or at the very least the difference between price paid and how much is would have cost to buy the pay as you go license up til now, plus a consolation bonus.
- pgeorgi 7y ago
  Lifetime of the product. Given such constraints I would seriously consider just starting different projects and let that app die a slow, painful death by having the ecosystem around it move forward. Yes, the app will be functional on Android 8 in 2039 - if you can still find a functional Android 8 device then (after the epoch roll-over). Basic maintenance helps the app move forward to Android 30 (or whatever is current then), letting you enjoy precisely the features you've bought back in 2017, so to me that seems to be strictly better. (I exaggerated version numbers and dates to take in the epoch roll-over issue as an outside-anybody's-responsibility issue with an ancient base OS: https://www.quora.com/What-will-happen-to-a-64-bit-Android-device-in-2038-because-of-the-Y2K38-problem https://www.quora.com/What-will-happen-to-a-64-bit-Android-d..., but the same scenario also applies when talking about supporting whatever base OS of 2022 and the ways it will or will not be compatible to today's apps)

hutzlibu 7y ago

With honesty. But in this case the promise was not made in good faith, promising lifetime while expecting and planning couple of years max. Would qualify as fraud to me.

tgsovlerkhgsel 7y ago

You don't. Those users helped bootstrap the company; you deliver the service at the level you promised as long as you're able to. If you didn't promise free updates/upgrades, you then can sell additional premium services only available to people who voluntarily upgrade to a package that pays more. The very least that a company that wants to go back on the promise would have to do would be full refunds. It would still be wrong, but the fact that they aren't even giving those out (automatically on cancellation, without asking) shows the lack of good faith.