4 ms·

Doesn't this sort of movement cause a lot of wear on the tires, thus making it unsuitable for routine use?

by devit 7y ago

Digit-Al 7y ago
It's not supposed to be for routine use. The idea is that if the car gets into a situation where stability is lost it will know how to handle it. As an example, imagine an autonomous car is going around a bend and hits a large patch of black ice and goes into a slide. Current systems will struggle to handle the car and it could result in a crash. With this knowledge added the car will know how to handle slides and will recover easily. Another example (given in the article) is if a person darts out into the path of the car it can perform a sharp turn and gracefully handle manoeuvring around them without losing control using this knowledge.
- HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
  This is exactly right. Recently, I drove a big 4WD SUV at about 5 mph onto ice in the middle of a 90 degree turn and lost traction in the front, and instead of doing anything helpful, the system decided the thing to do was engage the parking brake, which instead of stopping the vehicle put it into a slide, and almost got damaged because of it- when the vehicle stopped, it was less than half an inch away from a big transformer box in the front and less than 5 inches away from a concrete pole on the passenger's side. I think I honestly could have done better without traction control than the stupid stutter-stutter click slide that came with it in that situation.
toss1 7y ago
Yes, but. Yes #1 is that this is mostly Drifting techniques, which are mostly for show/style competition. The tyre slip angles mentioned are around 40deg, far past the optimal level of grip. Yes #2 Racing techniques are more explicitly seeking to optimize for maximum grip, often found around 3 to 6 degree slip angles (depending on tyres, tyre pressure, tread & road temps, road cleanliness, dryness, etc.). Both still are in the ranges of tyre slippage, at the edges of control, and burn tyres at crazy rates vs street use (drifting just insanely so). Moreover, as someone with race training & experience, I can say that anyone doing full race/drift techniques on the streets as an ordinary practice is a real a*hole & a hazard. BUT, all that said, it is absolutely critical to have thise techniques in your bag of tricks, available to use when something exceptional happens. In those rare-ish events, being able to use the full performance envelope of the vehicle is a real life saver, both for you and the others nearby. So, for sure not every day, but these guys are absolutely right about the need to work on the full dynamic range of the performance spectrum.
- zzzeek 7y ago
  > BUT, all that said, it is absolutely critical to have thise techniques in your bag of tricks, available to use when something exceptional happens. In those rare-ish events, being able to use the full performance envelope of the vehicle is a real life saver, both for you and the others nearby. are you referring to during a road race, or ordinary driving on ordinary streets? It would be great if you could try to provide evidence for the latter. I've never heard of accidents being avoided on highways because someone knew how to do racecar drifting. My own 30 years of driving experience would suggest that not tailgating, keeping a safe distance from the other cars, and being alert for those occasional race-car-wannabes whipping in between everyone, invariably always driving BMWs, is likely to be statistically much more effective.
  - toss1 7y ago
    Just to clarify here, I'm talking about driving on the edge of available grip, NOT the wholesale sideways drifting tech - that is mostly for show. Of course, in road racing, these skills are critical multiple times per lap. On the street - there are still too many examples to list from direct personal experience. Long trips, find myself in a severe snowstorm, or an ice storm where it's too slippery to even stand, cars off the road everywhere, I'm able to drive (w/ managed sliding) to make it through to destination or shelter just fine. Similarly, coming onto a muddy or oiled patch, same thing -- very handy to be able to both minimize the consequences of lost grip, or recover from a sliding situation without hitting anything. Also the occasions where an obstacle is in the road by surprise behind a visual obstacle -car pulls out, parked in road behind corner, whatever, available space is closing -- being able to drive with precision at the limits of available grip makes the difference between a <whew - close one!> and a <mash the brakes, turn the wheel, bash into whatever> incident. Obviously, alertness is key to everything (even w/ the best skills), and of course maintaining safe distances, etc. is also key, and the basis of any sound skill set. Edit:, additional clarification, the traction controls in many modern cars also eliminates the option for many of the high-slip-angle moves. You'd have to turn of all thise features, or unplug the fuse, which is not possible on the timescale of an emergency maneuver.

Doesn't this sort of movement cause a lot of wear on the tires, thus making it unsuitable for routine use?

by devit 7y ago

Doesn't this sort of movement cause a lot of wear on the tires, thus making it unsuitable for routine use?

It's not supposed to be for routine use. The idea is that if the car gets into a situation where stability is lost it will know how to handle it. As an example, imagine an autonomous car is going around a bend and hits a large patch of black ice and goes into a slide. Current systems will struggle to handle the car and it could result in a crash. With this knowledge added the car will know how to handle slides and will recover easily. Another example (given in the article) is if a person darts out into the path of the car it can perform a sharp turn and gracefully handle manoeuvring around them without losing control using this knowledge.

HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
This is exactly right. Recently, I drove a big 4WD SUV at about 5 mph onto ice in the middle of a 90 degree turn and lost traction in the front, and instead of doing anything helpful, the system decided the thing to do was engage the parking brake, which instead of stopping the vehicle put it into a slide, and almost got damaged because of it- when the vehicle stopped, it was less than half an inch away from a big transformer box in the front and less than 5 inches away from a concrete pole on the passenger's side. I think I honestly could have done better without traction control than the stupid stutter-stutter click slide that came with it in that situation.

toss1 7y ago

Yes, but. Yes #1 is that this is mostly Drifting techniques, which are mostly for show/style competition. The tyre slip angles mentioned are around 40deg, far past the optimal level of grip. Yes #2 Racing techniques are more explicitly seeking to optimize for maximum grip, often found around 3 to 6 degree slip angles (depending on tyres, tyre pressure, tread & road temps, road cleanliness, dryness, etc.). Both still are in the ranges of tyre slippage, at the edges of control, and burn tyres at crazy rates vs street use (drifting just insanely so). Moreover, as someone with race training & experience, I can say that anyone doing full race/drift techniques on the streets as an ordinary practice is a real a*hole & a hazard. BUT, all that said, it is absolutely critical to have thise techniques in your bag of tricks, available to use when something exceptional happens. In those rare-ish events, being able to use the full performance envelope of the vehicle is a real life saver, both for you and the others nearby. So, for sure not every day, but these guys are absolutely right about the need to work on the full dynamic range of the performance spectrum.

zzzeek 7y ago
> BUT, all that said, it is absolutely critical to have thise techniques in your bag of tricks, available to use when something exceptional happens. In those rare-ish events, being able to use the full performance envelope of the vehicle is a real life saver, both for you and the others nearby. are you referring to during a road race, or ordinary driving on ordinary streets? It would be great if you could try to provide evidence for the latter. I've never heard of accidents being avoided on highways because someone knew how to do racecar drifting. My own 30 years of driving experience would suggest that not tailgating, keeping a safe distance from the other cars, and being alert for those occasional race-car-wannabes whipping in between everyone, invariably always driving BMWs, is likely to be statistically much more effective.
- toss1 7y ago
  Just to clarify here, I'm talking about driving on the edge of available grip, NOT the wholesale sideways drifting tech - that is mostly for show. Of course, in road racing, these skills are critical multiple times per lap. On the street - there are still too many examples to list from direct personal experience. Long trips, find myself in a severe snowstorm, or an ice storm where it's too slippery to even stand, cars off the road everywhere, I'm able to drive (w/ managed sliding) to make it through to destination or shelter just fine. Similarly, coming onto a muddy or oiled patch, same thing -- very handy to be able to both minimize the consequences of lost grip, or recover from a sliding situation without hitting anything. Also the occasions where an obstacle is in the road by surprise behind a visual obstacle -car pulls out, parked in road behind corner, whatever, available space is closing -- being able to drive with precision at the limits of available grip makes the difference between a <whew - close one!> and a <mash the brakes, turn the wheel, bash into whatever> incident. Obviously, alertness is key to everything (even w/ the best skills), and of course maintaining safe distances, etc. is also key, and the basis of any sound skill set. Edit:, additional clarification, the traction controls in many modern cars also eliminates the option for many of the high-slip-angle moves. You'd have to turn of all thise features, or unplug the fuse, which is not possible on the timescale of an emergency maneuver.