3 ms·

I don't think this is true. If you hit black ice and the tire skids, the problem is you just have no friction. Modern traction control systems already account

I don't think this is true. If you hit black ice and the tire skids, the problem is you just have no friction. Modern traction control systems already account for this as best they can - I don't see how this model would help any more except for trying to go faster through patches of black ice. And even then, drifting inherently requires traction in order to modulate the throttle and control the vehicle. If you can't get the wheels to connect with the road, the first thing you'd want to fix are your tires - not your traction control system. Most people don't recognize how much better modern winter tires are compared to all season tires for driving on snow and ice. https://youtu.be/atayHQYqA3g https://youtu.be/atayHQYqA3g

LoSboccacc 7y ago
yeah but even then the autopilot need to adapt to the different conditions, it can't just throw the hands up when the conditions are hard and let the driver to crash on its own (at least the ideal full autonomous) so you need to have a "friction" (lateral and longitudinal) input to the model, so that the model forecasted car position matches the actual car future, to allow the autopilot to plan the correct avoidance maneuver
- OnlineGladiator 7y ago
  You're assuming Autopilot can't currently account for losing traction (this is probably true). But unexpectedly hitting a patch of black ice won't favor one model over the other - in either case you'll use the same methods to slow down. The only difference would be if you also had to avoid an object some distance ahead, and the drift model helped you maneuver around it by applying the throttle. It's extremely difficult for me to contrive a scenario where this would help avoid an accident over a standard traction control model found in any modern automobile. But technically I guess it's possible it could help.
  - LoSboccacc 7y ago
    > contrive a scenario pretty easy actually. car ahead swerve to avoid an obstacle. autopilot don't see the obstacle until the car ahead swerve. autopilot has to change lane to avoid obstacle. if it has recently snow some lane will have different traction than others. this is what happens on most of these pileup videos you see on youtube, so while not common (there are a handful a year after all) they aren't just hypoteticals
    - OnlineGladiator 7y ago
      You're right - I guess it's not that hard to imagine that scenario. But how would the car know which lanes have traction? If the car can reliably detect black ice it can avoid it without ever having to slip/skid.
      - LoSboccacc 7y ago
        yeah that the hard part, humans can't identify it visually, so car will probably be able to identify it only after it loses traction, reducing the margins significantly.
  - mlonkibjuyhv 7y ago
    Why wouldn't a model that knows how to drive in winter-conditions be better than one that doesn't? There are more effective actions than hitting the brakes and hoping for the best available, one of which is to continue driving the vehicle in a manner that is compatible with the conditions. Don't make abrupt changes to the configuration of the car and search for traction and positive outcomes. Of course this is greatly simplified by not going 90mph on all-year tires.
petschge 7y ago
The thing is: By the time the car has traction again it might have rotated around the up-axis. Getting back from that configuration do a less unstable configuration can very well improve if the car knows how to drift, especially how to go into the desired direction even before the drift has ended. Doing so would make the (result from the) initial lose of control on the black ice more limited and more controlled, hence less risky. tl;dr. nothing you can do on the black ice. but if you have tracking again there might be faster and saver ways then "first stop drifting, second start driving in the correct direction".
- tempestn 7y ago
  Yes, this is exactly what I meant by a drift that was unintentionally initiated, such as by hitting a patch of black ice. Thanks for elaborating.
bborud 7y ago
If you hit black ice you are screwed anyway. The most useful thing your car could do is to detect black ice before you hit it. I’ve seen some technologies for doing just that. Black ice isn’t very easy to distinguish from other surface conditions cheaply, but the technology exists. (It just has to reach volume production).
- jacquesm 7y ago
  The very best way to deal with black ice is to avoid it entirely, simply do not drive if the conditions susceptible to generating it are present.
  - bborud 7y ago
    I live in a coastal city in Norway. You might as well tell me to hibernate :-) But on a more serious note: it isn’t that hard to cope with if you are prepared. In general by choosing proper tyres and learning to drive in those conditions. In particular by learning to read the conditions so you can anticipate where there’s localized black ice.
  - dharmab 7y ago
    For a lot of people, that's equivalent to tell them not to leave their homes for six months. It's possible to drive safely in black ice conditions with the right tires and appropriate levels of caution.

LoSboccacc 7y ago

yeah but even then the autopilot need to adapt to the different conditions, it can't just throw the hands up when the conditions are hard and let the driver to crash on its own (at least the ideal full autonomous) so you need to have a "friction" (lateral and longitudinal) input to the model, so that the model forecasted car position matches the actual car future, to allow the autopilot to plan the correct avoidance maneuver

OnlineGladiator 7y ago
You're assuming Autopilot can't currently account for losing traction (this is probably true). But unexpectedly hitting a patch of black ice won't favor one model over the other - in either case you'll use the same methods to slow down. The only difference would be if you also had to avoid an object some distance ahead, and the drift model helped you maneuver around it by applying the throttle. It's extremely difficult for me to contrive a scenario where this would help avoid an accident over a standard traction control model found in any modern automobile. But technically I guess it's possible it could help.
- LoSboccacc 7y ago
  > contrive a scenario pretty easy actually. car ahead swerve to avoid an obstacle. autopilot don't see the obstacle until the car ahead swerve. autopilot has to change lane to avoid obstacle. if it has recently snow some lane will have different traction than others. this is what happens on most of these pileup videos you see on youtube, so while not common (there are a handful a year after all) they aren't just hypoteticals
  - OnlineGladiator 7y ago
    You're right - I guess it's not that hard to imagine that scenario. But how would the car know which lanes have traction? If the car can reliably detect black ice it can avoid it without ever having to slip/skid.
    - LoSboccacc 7y ago
      yeah that the hard part, humans can't identify it visually, so car will probably be able to identify it only after it loses traction, reducing the margins significantly.
- mlonkibjuyhv 7y ago
  Why wouldn't a model that knows how to drive in winter-conditions be better than one that doesn't? There are more effective actions than hitting the brakes and hoping for the best available, one of which is to continue driving the vehicle in a manner that is compatible with the conditions. Don't make abrupt changes to the configuration of the car and search for traction and positive outcomes. Of course this is greatly simplified by not going 90mph on all-year tires.

petschge 7y ago

The thing is: By the time the car has traction again it might have rotated around the up-axis. Getting back from that configuration do a less unstable configuration can very well improve if the car knows how to drift, especially how to go into the desired direction even before the drift has ended. Doing so would make the (result from the) initial lose of control on the black ice more limited and more controlled, hence less risky. tl;dr. nothing you can do on the black ice. but if you have tracking again there might be faster and saver ways then "first stop drifting, second start driving in the correct direction".

tempestn 7y ago
Yes, this is exactly what I meant by a drift that was unintentionally initiated, such as by hitting a patch of black ice. Thanks for elaborating.

bborud 7y ago

If you hit black ice you are screwed anyway. The most useful thing your car could do is to detect black ice before you hit it. I’ve seen some technologies for doing just that. Black ice isn’t very easy to distinguish from other surface conditions cheaply, but the technology exists. (It just has to reach volume production).

jacquesm 7y ago
The very best way to deal with black ice is to avoid it entirely, simply do not drive if the conditions susceptible to generating it are present.
- bborud 7y ago
  I live in a coastal city in Norway. You might as well tell me to hibernate :-) But on a more serious note: it isn’t that hard to cope with if you are prepared. In general by choosing proper tyres and learning to drive in those conditions. In particular by learning to read the conditions so you can anticipate where there’s localized black ice.
- dharmab 7y ago
  For a lot of people, that's equivalent to tell them not to leave their homes for six months. It's possible to drive safely in black ice conditions with the right tires and appropriate levels of caution.