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So is the general idea that by removing the automated controls, which normally limit drift so human drivers don't lose control, they're able to gather data at t

So is the general idea that by removing the automated controls, which normally limit drift so human drivers don't lose control, they're able to gather data at the extremes of car handling? I'm curious how this would be applied in the real world. It almost seemed to suggest that a self-driving car would operate with those stability controls turned off, allowing it operate evasive maneuvers that would be impossible in a human-driven car.

jcims 7y ago
I think you have the right idea, this is just dipping the toes of autonomous vehicles into the pool of kinetic friction.
zone411 7y ago
Stability control is just another algorithm running in the car so it's logical that a more general system would supersede it. Keeping existing code in place would limit car's possibilities and increase complexity.
mmerlin 7y ago
I'd like to see this car vs humans in the Hyperdrive series on Netflix
dharmab 7y ago
Drifting is objectively less effective and safe than normal manuevering and braking. Drifting as a sport exists to look cool and stylish. It's like figure skating with cars. (There is one exception- off road racing on loose surfaces requires drifting. But driving that way off road is only useful for speed at the expense of safety and reliability.)
- tempestn 7y ago
  Another exception of a sort, and I believe the one this research is meant to address, is when the drift is initiated unintentionally. Say you hit a patch of black ice mid-corner, for example. This kind of work can expand the envelop of the control system to encompass these scenarios.
  - OnlineGladiator 7y ago
    I don't think this is true. If you hit black ice and the tire skids, the problem is you just have no friction. Modern traction control systems already account for this as best they can - I don't see how this model would help any more except for trying to go faster through patches of black ice. And even then, drifting inherently requires traction in order to modulate the throttle and control the vehicle. If you can't get the wheels to connect with the road, the first thing you'd want to fix are your tires - not your traction control system. Most people don't recognize how much better modern winter tires are compared to all season tires for driving on snow and ice. https://youtu.be/atayHQYqA3g https://youtu.be/atayHQYqA3g
    - LoSboccacc 7y ago
      yeah but even then the autopilot need to adapt to the different conditions, it can't just throw the hands up when the conditions are hard and let the driver to crash on its own (at least the ideal full autonomous) so you need to have a "friction" (lateral and longitudinal) input to the model, so that the model forecasted car position matches the actual car future, to allow the autopilot to plan the correct avoidance maneuver
      - OnlineGladiator 7y ago
        You're assuming Autopilot can't currently account for losing traction (this is probably true). But unexpectedly hitting a patch of black ice won't favor one model over the other - in either case you'll use the same methods to slow down. The only difference would be if you also had to avoid an object some distance ahead, and the drift model helped you maneuver around it by applying the throttle. It's extremely difficult for me to contrive a scenario where this would help avoid an accident over a standard traction control model found in any modern automobile. But technically I guess it's possible it could help.
        LoSboccacc 7y ago
        > contrive a scenario pretty easy actually. car ahead swerve to avoid an obstacle. autopilot don't see the obstacle until the car ahead swerve. autopilot has to change lane to avoid obstacle. if it has recently snow some lane will have different traction than others. this is what happens on most of these pileup videos you see on youtube, so while not common (there are a handful a year after all) they aren't just hypoteticals
- jcims 7y ago
  It seems the longer term objective is to learn how to steer the car while in a skid, not intentionally drift. This is a useful defensive driving skill. You may not have time to recover before a collision, and getting the car comfortable with avoiding obstacles while sideways seems a good way to help.
- montenegrohugo 7y ago
  What a grandiose statement with no backing whatsoever. "Objectively"? Drifting, as most things, has its place. If you've ever gone karting on a wet track, you know that you can't really place first against competent drivers unless you use drifting to a significant degree. Same thing with off-road driving, or driving in general that requires rapid direction changes with low surface traction.
bborud 7y ago
I drive a lot on slippery surfaces. My car has stability control from 7-8 years ago. I’m sure a lot has improved in that time, but it is very obvious that the stability control in my car is more about trying to “rescue” me than assist me. Meaning, it will interrupt normal flow to “correct” more than it will assist. If you extend the envelope for what driving dynamics you can handle I would imagine you could make a much more smooth and safe experience. That being said: I’ve driven somewhat newer cars on wet race tracks, at speed, and I have to say I’m a bit impressed with how well they behave under stress. Still meddlesome, but not as dangerous as they used to be. (But track use in slippery conditions are outside the envelope for a road car, so you’re better off with the assists turned down or off to avoid surprises)
maxerickson 7y ago
It's a demonstration that they can predict the result of a wide range of control inputs across a wide range of vehicle states. There's nothing unusual about a car without stability control. ABS and traction control have only become standard features relatively recently. Vehicle stability control builds on traction control by attempting to predict the driver's intent instead of just preventing slipping. I think that you are right, that it enable more drastic responses in situations that required them. The normal control mode would probably focus on passenger comfort though.

jcims 7y ago

I think you have the right idea, this is just dipping the toes of autonomous vehicles into the pool of kinetic friction.

zone411 7y ago

Stability control is just another algorithm running in the car so it's logical that a more general system would supersede it. Keeping existing code in place would limit car's possibilities and increase complexity.

mmerlin 7y ago

I'd like to see this car vs humans in the Hyperdrive series on Netflix

dharmab 7y ago

Drifting is objectively less effective and safe than normal manuevering and braking. Drifting as a sport exists to look cool and stylish. It's like figure skating with cars. (There is one exception- off road racing on loose surfaces requires drifting. But driving that way off road is only useful for speed at the expense of safety and reliability.)

tempestn 7y ago
Another exception of a sort, and I believe the one this research is meant to address, is when the drift is initiated unintentionally. Say you hit a patch of black ice mid-corner, for example. This kind of work can expand the envelop of the control system to encompass these scenarios.
- OnlineGladiator 7y ago
  I don't think this is true. If you hit black ice and the tire skids, the problem is you just have no friction. Modern traction control systems already account for this as best they can - I don't see how this model would help any more except for trying to go faster through patches of black ice. And even then, drifting inherently requires traction in order to modulate the throttle and control the vehicle. If you can't get the wheels to connect with the road, the first thing you'd want to fix are your tires - not your traction control system. Most people don't recognize how much better modern winter tires are compared to all season tires for driving on snow and ice. https://youtu.be/atayHQYqA3g https://youtu.be/atayHQYqA3g
  - LoSboccacc 7y ago
    yeah but even then the autopilot need to adapt to the different conditions, it can't just throw the hands up when the conditions are hard and let the driver to crash on its own (at least the ideal full autonomous) so you need to have a "friction" (lateral and longitudinal) input to the model, so that the model forecasted car position matches the actual car future, to allow the autopilot to plan the correct avoidance maneuver
    - OnlineGladiator 7y ago
      You're assuming Autopilot can't currently account for losing traction (this is probably true). But unexpectedly hitting a patch of black ice won't favor one model over the other - in either case you'll use the same methods to slow down. The only difference would be if you also had to avoid an object some distance ahead, and the drift model helped you maneuver around it by applying the throttle. It's extremely difficult for me to contrive a scenario where this would help avoid an accident over a standard traction control model found in any modern automobile. But technically I guess it's possible it could help.
      - LoSboccacc 7y ago
        > contrive a scenario pretty easy actually. car ahead swerve to avoid an obstacle. autopilot don't see the obstacle until the car ahead swerve. autopilot has to change lane to avoid obstacle. if it has recently snow some lane will have different traction than others. this is what happens on most of these pileup videos you see on youtube, so while not common (there are a handful a year after all) they aren't just hypoteticals
jcims 7y ago
It seems the longer term objective is to learn how to steer the car while in a skid, not intentionally drift. This is a useful defensive driving skill. You may not have time to recover before a collision, and getting the car comfortable with avoiding obstacles while sideways seems a good way to help.
montenegrohugo 7y ago
What a grandiose statement with no backing whatsoever. "Objectively"? Drifting, as most things, has its place. If you've ever gone karting on a wet track, you know that you can't really place first against competent drivers unless you use drifting to a significant degree. Same thing with off-road driving, or driving in general that requires rapid direction changes with low surface traction.

bborud 7y ago

I drive a lot on slippery surfaces. My car has stability control from 7-8 years ago. I’m sure a lot has improved in that time, but it is very obvious that the stability control in my car is more about trying to “rescue” me than assist me. Meaning, it will interrupt normal flow to “correct” more than it will assist. If you extend the envelope for what driving dynamics you can handle I would imagine you could make a much more smooth and safe experience. That being said: I’ve driven somewhat newer cars on wet race tracks, at speed, and I have to say I’m a bit impressed with how well they behave under stress. Still meddlesome, but not as dangerous as they used to be. (But track use in slippery conditions are outside the envelope for a road car, so you’re better off with the assists turned down or off to avoid surprises)

maxerickson 7y ago

It's a demonstration that they can predict the result of a wide range of control inputs across a wide range of vehicle states. There's nothing unusual about a car without stability control. ABS and traction control have only become standard features relatively recently. Vehicle stability control builds on traction control by attempting to predict the driver's intent instead of just preventing slipping. I think that you are right, that it enable more drastic responses in situations that required them. The normal control mode would probably focus on passenger comfort though.