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I worked for a company that hired heavily through the H1b. The ceo was a good guy who worked in good faith but he was replaced with a bit of an asshole who move

by geebee 7y ago

I worked for a company that hired heavily through the H1b. The ceo was a good guy who worked in good faith but he was replaced with a bit of an asshole who moved the office from The north bay to the South Bay, changed to an open office, and banned telecommuting (“because this is what google does”, though evidently the free meals, gym, and other things google does had less appeal to him). Most of the us citizens quit, but the h1b holders, many of whom were still in the green card queue, stuck it out. I absolutely do not fault them for this. It was during the 2008 banking crisis and losing a job could be a severe setback from an immigration perspective in that market. However it did mean that the company got away with bullying their workforce in a way that would not fly if workers were free members of the society they live in, rather than people who are allowed here only if they remain in the good graces of their employer. I could go on about why this isn’t good for the tech workforce in general, but I hope it’s pretty clear. I hope it’s also clear that you can support immigration without thinking this is a good arrangement for workers. In fact I’m bewildered that people think it’s pro immigrant to put corporations in control of the system like this

geofft 7y ago
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly - the H-1B tied hands system is bad (and your story is a perfect example of how it acts as a massive government interference in free markets and what precisely goes wrong). The application process being discussed here is about green cards, which remove those handcuffs from the workers. Those companies which do sponsor green cards are basically giving up their ability to pressure workers in these ways. Still, it seems clear to me that the employees are happier staying (and having joined knowing this risk) than going back to their original country, even despite the downsides. I'd say the underlying problem here isn't "Hire American" but "Don't create a class of workers that are stuck at their employer's company." American workers are better off when their H-1B coworkers can credibly threaten to quit.
- geebee 7y ago
  The thing is, the green card sponsorship can take a long time and become another non market mechanism to coerce an otherwise in demand worker to remain with an employer. You can transfer from one “sponsor” to another, but if your new employer goes under and you lied your job (or if you get fired), the entire time you waited us now at risk. To me, it’s s sign off a profoundly broken process that we’re even taking about “sponsors” like this. Lastly even if you awarded the green card immediately to the worker, it still gives a corporation the right to deny it grant us residency rights to an applicant which will profoundly affect negotiations and so much else. For example once I got into it with an interviewer who was clearly trying to get to say “always write tests first” and it was irritating me so we went at it. No hire. Totally fair but should this jackass bee Ed choosing who gets to have a green card based on their acquiescence to his views on software development in an interview?
- supercanuck 7y ago
  You are missing the point. H1-B’s depress wages because of the handcuffs. Nobody is arguing not to allow “foreigners”, the argument is, if they are as skilled as you claim, they ought to be brought in an open market system and their salaries should commesurate. The government seems smarter than you and realizes that H1-B’s are not a method to bring talent into the US, but a means to bring in cheaper talent into the US and we see that reflected in their salaries, If they were the LeBron James of software Engineering, you would see that show up, e.g. Larry Page and Sergey Brin. But you seem more interested in arguing some Libertarian pipe dream that doesn't exist. There isn't a free market for labor snd their never will be because that would cause salaries to rise.
  - esoterica 7y ago
    If an “open market system” means that immigrants should be hired on an equal footing with citizens without being tied to a single employer who holds undue power over them, then I agree with you. You seem to be arguing the exact opposite (for more protectionism) though. The H-1B is essentially the only way to bring skilled workers into the US, besides a few other small niche categories. Almost ALL foreign skilled workers, not just the cheap ones, come in on that visa category. You have many fundamental factual misunderstandings about the reality of the program but that doesn’t seem to stop you from forming very strong opinions about it. I know many H-1Bs who make >1m/year, so it’s categorically not just for cheap talent.
    - supercanuck 7y ago
      The median salary of an H1-B is $80,000. How is this even a debate as to the purpose of an H1-B? It is literally to increase supply of talent for the purpose of reducing labor cost.
      - esoterica 7y ago
        If immigrants depress wages then why is the Bay Area the best paying tech city in the entire world by a very large margin? There are a lot of immigrants there, are there not? You would expect an isolationist dictatorship like North Korea to have the best wages. The H-1B program represents almost the entirety of the American skilled immigration program. To ask what the H1-B program is for is to ask what skilled immigration is for. And skilled immigration is necessary for any company to become world beaters. Why do all the top European soccer teams have so many foreign players? Do you think it’s because they are too cheap to hire locals? You can’t conquer the world the way the valley has by tapping only 5% of the talent pool. Of course the program has many flaws (such as restricting the ability for immigrants to change jobs), but more protectionism and bigotry is not the answer to these flaws.

by geebee 7y ago

geofft 7y ago

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly - the H-1B tied hands system is bad (and your story is a perfect example of how it acts as a massive government interference in free markets and what precisely goes wrong). The application process being discussed here is about green cards, which remove those handcuffs from the workers. Those companies which do sponsor green cards are basically giving up their ability to pressure workers in these ways. Still, it seems clear to me that the employees are happier staying (and having joined knowing this risk) than going back to their original country, even despite the downsides. I'd say the underlying problem here isn't "Hire American" but "Don't create a class of workers that are stuck at their employer's company." American workers are better off when their H-1B coworkers can credibly threaten to quit.

geebee 7y ago
The thing is, the green card sponsorship can take a long time and become another non market mechanism to coerce an otherwise in demand worker to remain with an employer. You can transfer from one “sponsor” to another, but if your new employer goes under and you lied your job (or if you get fired), the entire time you waited us now at risk. To me, it’s s sign off a profoundly broken process that we’re even taking about “sponsors” like this. Lastly even if you awarded the green card immediately to the worker, it still gives a corporation the right to deny it grant us residency rights to an applicant which will profoundly affect negotiations and so much else. For example once I got into it with an interviewer who was clearly trying to get to say “always write tests first” and it was irritating me so we went at it. No hire. Totally fair but should this jackass bee Ed choosing who gets to have a green card based on their acquiescence to his views on software development in an interview?
supercanuck 7y ago
You are missing the point. H1-B’s depress wages because of the handcuffs. Nobody is arguing not to allow “foreigners”, the argument is, if they are as skilled as you claim, they ought to be brought in an open market system and their salaries should commesurate. The government seems smarter than you and realizes that H1-B’s are not a method to bring talent into the US, but a means to bring in cheaper talent into the US and we see that reflected in their salaries, If they were the LeBron James of software Engineering, you would see that show up, e.g. Larry Page and Sergey Brin. But you seem more interested in arguing some Libertarian pipe dream that doesn't exist. There isn't a free market for labor snd their never will be because that would cause salaries to rise.
- esoterica 7y ago
  If an “open market system” means that immigrants should be hired on an equal footing with citizens without being tied to a single employer who holds undue power over them, then I agree with you. You seem to be arguing the exact opposite (for more protectionism) though. The H-1B is essentially the only way to bring skilled workers into the US, besides a few other small niche categories. Almost ALL foreign skilled workers, not just the cheap ones, come in on that visa category. You have many fundamental factual misunderstandings about the reality of the program but that doesn’t seem to stop you from forming very strong opinions about it. I know many H-1Bs who make >1m/year, so it’s categorically not just for cheap talent.
  - supercanuck 7y ago
    The median salary of an H1-B is $80,000. How is this even a debate as to the purpose of an H1-B? It is literally to increase supply of talent for the purpose of reducing labor cost.
    - esoterica 7y ago
      If immigrants depress wages then why is the Bay Area the best paying tech city in the entire world by a very large margin? There are a lot of immigrants there, are there not? You would expect an isolationist dictatorship like North Korea to have the best wages. The H-1B program represents almost the entirety of the American skilled immigration program. To ask what the H1-B program is for is to ask what skilled immigration is for. And skilled immigration is necessary for any company to become world beaters. Why do all the top European soccer teams have so many foreign players? Do you think it’s because they are too cheap to hire locals? You can’t conquer the world the way the valley has by tapping only 5% of the talent pool. Of course the program has many flaws (such as restricting the ability for immigrants to change jobs), but more protectionism and bigotry is not the answer to these flaws.