6 ms·

Warm fuzzy feelings, and scientific results, both point to in-group preference being advantageous for members of the group [1,2,3]. I'm sure now that you're aw

by deogeo 7y ago

Warm fuzzy feelings, and scientific results, both point to in-group preference being advantageous for members of the group [1,2,3]. I'm sure now that you're aware of these results, you'll update your beliefs accordingly - either that in-group favoritism is advantageous, or at the very least that we can't yet be sure getting rid of it is. [1] The Evolutionary Dominance of Ethnocentric Cooperation: http://jasss.soc.surrey.ac.uk/16/3/7.html http://jasss.soc.surrey.ac.uk/16/3/7.html [2] Evolution of in-group favoritism: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3380441/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3380441/ [3] The Evolution of Ethnocentrism: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~axe/research/Hammond%20and%20Axelrod%20JCR%2006.pdf http://www-personal.umich.edu/~axe/research/Hammond%20and%20... (journal version: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0022002706293470 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0022002706293470) - key quote: "When cooperation is especially costly to individuals, the authors show how ethnocentrism itself can be necessary to sustain cooperation."

geofft 7y ago
In-group favoritism is certainly advantageous, but software engineering is hard. Being able to see a team of fellow $race at nearby desks isn't nearly as valuable to me as them successfully writing software that works. Those studies discuss agents solving games like the Prisoner's Dilemma, where all the agents are equally capable of participating, winning, and losing. I want to see a study where different agents have different skill levels, and the various groups aren't divided on skill lines. My instinct is that the strategy of "work with high-skilled agents from wherever" will beat the strategy of "work with my group".
- supercanuck 7y ago
  Are South American migrants more talented than local migrants? Are American Migrants more talented than South American? I don't think so they, benefit from the efficiencies of being in the United States. The issue is cost of labor. Always is, always will be. Corporations are not moving jobs offshore because there is more talent there, it is because the cost is cheaper.
  - geofft 7y ago
    If you want to hire the most talented software engineers on the market, why would you expect them to be all in the US, or all in South America? Also, neither H-1Bs nor green cards are about moving jobs offshore, they are about moving people onshore.
esoterica 7y ago
What if I’m a coastal techie and my preferred in-group is people who share my cosmopolitan globalist values? Since in-group favoritism is proven to be a good thing should I discriminate against and refuse to hire nativists like you? After all that’s what the science says right?
- deogeo 7y ago
  Then other groups will exploit you for unreciprocated cooperation, as described in the articles I linked. You won't be able to differentiate candidates that truly share your values, and those that share them only as long as it benefits them. A few examples: https://www.deccanherald.com/international/this-bengaluru-it-co-faces-discrimination-lawsuit-in-us-760605.html https://www.deccanherald.com/international/this-bengaluru-it... https://qz.com/india/1010965/a-former-executive-is-accusing-infosys-of-racism-that-favours-indians/ https://qz.com/india/1010965/a-former-executive-is-accusing-... https://www.ustechworkers.com/lawsuit-intels-indian-managers-discriminated-against-american-breitbart/ https://www.ustechworkers.com/lawsuit-intels-indian-managers... https://medium.com/@satyajit/indians-only-hire-indians-i-didnt-believe-this-until-i-saw-my-last-manager-who-is-an-indian-7ecdea4fb70a https://medium.com/@satyajit/indians-only-hire-indians-i-did... When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles.
  - esoterica 7y ago
    As if Americans don’t sometimes exploit other Americans? Cooperation is good and necessary, designating arbitrary in-groups and out-groups through primal bigotry is not.
    - deogeo 7y ago
      Too bad, because that's what other groups do, putting those that don't at a disadvantage. And I should add - you speak as if discrimination against nativists is just a hypothetical. But it is already a fact: In a survey, a third of liberal professors admitted they'd discriminate against conservatives. "Generally speaking, the more liberal the respondent, the more willingness to discriminate and, paradoxically, the higher the assumption that conservatives do not face a hostile climate in the academy.": https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/aug/1/liberal-majority-on-campus-yes-were-biased/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/aug/1/liberal-majo... The University of California requires job applicants to submit a statement on how they helped advance diversity: https://www.ams.org/journals/notices/201911/rnoti-p1778.pdf https://www.ams.org/journals/notices/201911/rnoti-p1778.pdf

by deogeo 7y ago

geofft 7y ago

In-group favoritism is certainly advantageous, but software engineering is hard. Being able to see a team of fellow $race at nearby desks isn't nearly as valuable to me as them successfully writing software that works. Those studies discuss agents solving games like the Prisoner's Dilemma, where all the agents are equally capable of participating, winning, and losing. I want to see a study where different agents have different skill levels, and the various groups aren't divided on skill lines. My instinct is that the strategy of "work with high-skilled agents from wherever" will beat the strategy of "work with my group".

supercanuck 7y ago
Are South American migrants more talented than local migrants? Are American Migrants more talented than South American? I don't think so they, benefit from the efficiencies of being in the United States. The issue is cost of labor. Always is, always will be. Corporations are not moving jobs offshore because there is more talent there, it is because the cost is cheaper.
- geofft 7y ago
  If you want to hire the most talented software engineers on the market, why would you expect them to be all in the US, or all in South America? Also, neither H-1Bs nor green cards are about moving jobs offshore, they are about moving people onshore.

esoterica 7y ago

What if I’m a coastal techie and my preferred in-group is people who share my cosmopolitan globalist values? Since in-group favoritism is proven to be a good thing should I discriminate against and refuse to hire nativists like you? After all that’s what the science says right?

deogeo 7y ago
Then other groups will exploit you for unreciprocated cooperation, as described in the articles I linked. You won't be able to differentiate candidates that truly share your values, and those that share them only as long as it benefits them. A few examples: https://www.deccanherald.com/international/this-bengaluru-it-co-faces-discrimination-lawsuit-in-us-760605.html https://www.deccanherald.com/international/this-bengaluru-it... https://qz.com/india/1010965/a-former-executive-is-accusing-infosys-of-racism-that-favours-indians/ https://qz.com/india/1010965/a-former-executive-is-accusing-... https://www.ustechworkers.com/lawsuit-intels-indian-managers-discriminated-against-american-breitbart/ https://www.ustechworkers.com/lawsuit-intels-indian-managers... https://medium.com/@satyajit/indians-only-hire-indians-i-didnt-believe-this-until-i-saw-my-last-manager-who-is-an-indian-7ecdea4fb70a https://medium.com/@satyajit/indians-only-hire-indians-i-did... When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles.
- esoterica 7y ago
  As if Americans don’t sometimes exploit other Americans? Cooperation is good and necessary, designating arbitrary in-groups and out-groups through primal bigotry is not.
  - deogeo 7y ago
    Too bad, because that's what other groups do, putting those that don't at a disadvantage. And I should add - you speak as if discrimination against nativists is just a hypothetical. But it is already a fact: In a survey, a third of liberal professors admitted they'd discriminate against conservatives. "Generally speaking, the more liberal the respondent, the more willingness to discriminate and, paradoxically, the higher the assumption that conservatives do not face a hostile climate in the academy.": https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/aug/1/liberal-majority-on-campus-yes-were-biased/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/aug/1/liberal-majo... The University of California requires job applicants to submit a statement on how they helped advance diversity: https://www.ams.org/journals/notices/201911/rnoti-p1778.pdf https://www.ams.org/journals/notices/201911/rnoti-p1778.pdf