5 ms·

You think that, after a company has had a worker doing good work for them for years, they should fire the worker and replace them with an unknown, possibly of l

by geofft 7y ago

You think that, after a company has had a worker doing good work for them for years, they should fire the worker and replace them with an unknown, possibly of lower quality? Why? Who does this benefit?

Mountain_Skies 7y ago
The citizen of the country in which is job is located... or at least currently located.
- 1996 7y ago
  No, because it makes the output of this job less competitive. If you only consider the citizen directly involved in creating that output - maybe. But if that persons needs anything else created by other people in similar conditions (hired based on blood, not merits), that citizen also gets a bad deal: they paid more for something of a lesser quality. But hey, warm fuzzy feelings.
  - deogeo 7y ago
    Warm fuzzy feelings, and scientific results, both point to in-group preference being advantageous for members of the group [1,2,3]. I'm sure now that you're aware of these results, you'll update your beliefs accordingly - either that in-group favoritism is advantageous, or at the very least that we can't yet be sure getting rid of it is. [1] The Evolutionary Dominance of Ethnocentric Cooperation: http://jasss.soc.surrey.ac.uk/16/3/7.html http://jasss.soc.surrey.ac.uk/16/3/7.html [2] Evolution of in-group favoritism: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3380441/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3380441/ [3] The Evolution of Ethnocentrism: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~axe/research/Hammond%20and%20Axelrod%20JCR%2006.pdf http://www-personal.umich.edu/~axe/research/Hammond%20and%20... (journal version: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0022002706293470 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0022002706293470) - key quote: "When cooperation is especially costly to individuals, the authors show how ethnocentrism itself can be necessary to sustain cooperation."
    - geofft 7y ago
      In-group favoritism is certainly advantageous, but software engineering is hard. Being able to see a team of fellow $race at nearby desks isn't nearly as valuable to me as them successfully writing software that works. Those studies discuss agents solving games like the Prisoner's Dilemma, where all the agents are equally capable of participating, winning, and losing. I want to see a study where different agents have different skill levels, and the various groups aren't divided on skill lines. My instinct is that the strategy of "work with high-skilled agents from wherever" will beat the strategy of "work with my group".
      - supercanuck 7y ago
        Are South American migrants more talented than local migrants? Are American Migrants more talented than South American? I don't think so they, benefit from the efficiencies of being in the United States. The issue is cost of labor. Always is, always will be. Corporations are not moving jobs offshore because there is more talent there, it is because the cost is cheaper.
        geofft 7y ago
        If you want to hire the most talented software engineers on the market, why would you expect them to be all in the US, or all in South America? Also, neither H-1Bs nor green cards are about moving jobs offshore, they are about moving people onshore.
    - esoterica 7y ago
      What if I’m a coastal techie and my preferred in-group is people who share my cosmopolitan globalist values? Since in-group favoritism is proven to be a good thing should I discriminate against and refuse to hire nativists like you? After all that’s what the science says right?
      - deogeo 7y ago
        Then other groups will exploit you for unreciprocated cooperation, as described in the articles I linked. You won't be able to differentiate candidates that truly share your values, and those that share them only as long as it benefits them. A few examples: https://www.deccanherald.com/international/this-bengaluru-it-co-faces-discrimination-lawsuit-in-us-760605.html https://www.deccanherald.com/international/this-bengaluru-it... https://qz.com/india/1010965/a-former-executive-is-accusing-infosys-of-racism-that-favours-indians/ https://qz.com/india/1010965/a-former-executive-is-accusing-... https://www.ustechworkers.com/lawsuit-intels-indian-managers-discriminated-against-american-breitbart/ https://www.ustechworkers.com/lawsuit-intels-indian-managers... https://medium.com/@satyajit/indians-only-hire-indians-i-didnt-believe-this-until-i-saw-my-last-manager-who-is-an-indian-7ecdea4fb70a https://medium.com/@satyajit/indians-only-hire-indians-i-did... When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles.
- geofft 7y ago
  How does it help me as a natural-born US citizen to fire my competent, experienced immigrant coworkers and replace them with some noobs who memorized FizzBuzz? I mean maybe it puts me in a better negotiating position if you artificially cap supply, but if my team fails to ship a product and meet our OKRs, that seems like a much bigger effect on my salary.
  - geebee 7y ago
    I worked for a company that hired heavily through the H1b. The ceo was a good guy who worked in good faith but he was replaced with a bit of an asshole who moved the office from The north bay to the South Bay, changed to an open office, and banned telecommuting (“because this is what google does”, though evidently the free meals, gym, and other things google does had less appeal to him). Most of the us citizens quit, but the h1b holders, many of whom were still in the green card queue, stuck it out. I absolutely do not fault them for this. It was during the 2008 banking crisis and losing a job could be a severe setback from an immigration perspective in that market. However it did mean that the company got away with bullying their workforce in a way that would not fly if workers were free members of the society they live in, rather than people who are allowed here only if they remain in the good graces of their employer. I could go on about why this isn’t good for the tech workforce in general, but I hope it’s pretty clear. I hope it’s also clear that you can support immigration without thinking this is a good arrangement for workers. In fact I’m bewildered that people think it’s pro immigrant to put corporations in control of the system like this
    - geofft 7y ago
      Yes, I agree wholeheartedly - the H-1B tied hands system is bad (and your story is a perfect example of how it acts as a massive government interference in free markets and what precisely goes wrong). The application process being discussed here is about green cards, which remove those handcuffs from the workers. Those companies which do sponsor green cards are basically giving up their ability to pressure workers in these ways. Still, it seems clear to me that the employees are happier staying (and having joined knowing this risk) than going back to their original country, even despite the downsides. I'd say the underlying problem here isn't "Hire American" but "Don't create a class of workers that are stuck at their employer's company." American workers are better off when their H-1B coworkers can credibly threaten to quit.
- esoterica 7y ago
  It’s illegal to discriminate on the basis of citizenship status. You can decline to sponsor visas, but if an immigrant already has work authorization you cannot refuse to hire them just because they are not a citizen.
1996 7y ago
It benefits the warm fuzzy feelings nationalists get when they think "one less foreigner" Note how I sad their feelings- it doesn't benefit even the nationalist, as lower quality products costing more don't benefit anyone.
supercanuck 7y ago
They could increase their offer and attract more talent? They could make the job more favorable to local talent. Who does this benefit? American Software Engineers. The United States. Tax Payers? Or we could depress wages by bringing in outside labor and applying handcuffs (H1-B) which will depress wages further. The company wants all the benefits and efficiencies of being in America without paying into the system
- geofft 7y ago
  > They could increase their offer and attract more talent? They could make the job more favorable to local talent. If we already have a good engineer who's part of the team and lives locally, what specifically is the benefit to firing this engineer and replacing them with "local" talent? Why is making the job more favorable to "local talent" advantageous? > American Software Engineers. The United States. Tax Payers? Again, as an American software engineer who badly needs qualified engineers on my team - what is the specific benefit to me?

by geofft 7y ago

Mountain_Skies 7y ago

The citizen of the country in which is job is located... or at least currently located.

1996 7y ago
No, because it makes the output of this job less competitive. If you only consider the citizen directly involved in creating that output - maybe. But if that persons needs anything else created by other people in similar conditions (hired based on blood, not merits), that citizen also gets a bad deal: they paid more for something of a lesser quality. But hey, warm fuzzy feelings.
- deogeo 7y ago
  Warm fuzzy feelings, and scientific results, both point to in-group preference being advantageous for members of the group [1,2,3]. I'm sure now that you're aware of these results, you'll update your beliefs accordingly - either that in-group favoritism is advantageous, or at the very least that we can't yet be sure getting rid of it is. [1] The Evolutionary Dominance of Ethnocentric Cooperation: http://jasss.soc.surrey.ac.uk/16/3/7.html http://jasss.soc.surrey.ac.uk/16/3/7.html [2] Evolution of in-group favoritism: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3380441/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3380441/ [3] The Evolution of Ethnocentrism: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~axe/research/Hammond%20and%20Axelrod%20JCR%2006.pdf http://www-personal.umich.edu/~axe/research/Hammond%20and%20... (journal version: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0022002706293470 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0022002706293470) - key quote: "When cooperation is especially costly to individuals, the authors show how ethnocentrism itself can be necessary to sustain cooperation."
  - geofft 7y ago
    In-group favoritism is certainly advantageous, but software engineering is hard. Being able to see a team of fellow $race at nearby desks isn't nearly as valuable to me as them successfully writing software that works. Those studies discuss agents solving games like the Prisoner's Dilemma, where all the agents are equally capable of participating, winning, and losing. I want to see a study where different agents have different skill levels, and the various groups aren't divided on skill lines. My instinct is that the strategy of "work with high-skilled agents from wherever" will beat the strategy of "work with my group".
    - supercanuck 7y ago
      Are South American migrants more talented than local migrants? Are American Migrants more talented than South American? I don't think so they, benefit from the efficiencies of being in the United States. The issue is cost of labor. Always is, always will be. Corporations are not moving jobs offshore because there is more talent there, it is because the cost is cheaper.
      - geofft 7y ago
        If you want to hire the most talented software engineers on the market, why would you expect them to be all in the US, or all in South America? Also, neither H-1Bs nor green cards are about moving jobs offshore, they are about moving people onshore.
  - esoterica 7y ago
    What if I’m a coastal techie and my preferred in-group is people who share my cosmopolitan globalist values? Since in-group favoritism is proven to be a good thing should I discriminate against and refuse to hire nativists like you? After all that’s what the science says right?
    - deogeo 7y ago
      Then other groups will exploit you for unreciprocated cooperation, as described in the articles I linked. You won't be able to differentiate candidates that truly share your values, and those that share them only as long as it benefits them. A few examples: https://www.deccanherald.com/international/this-bengaluru-it-co-faces-discrimination-lawsuit-in-us-760605.html https://www.deccanherald.com/international/this-bengaluru-it... https://qz.com/india/1010965/a-former-executive-is-accusing-infosys-of-racism-that-favours-indians/ https://qz.com/india/1010965/a-former-executive-is-accusing-... https://www.ustechworkers.com/lawsuit-intels-indian-managers-discriminated-against-american-breitbart/ https://www.ustechworkers.com/lawsuit-intels-indian-managers... https://medium.com/@satyajit/indians-only-hire-indians-i-didnt-believe-this-until-i-saw-my-last-manager-who-is-an-indian-7ecdea4fb70a https://medium.com/@satyajit/indians-only-hire-indians-i-did... When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles.
geofft 7y ago
How does it help me as a natural-born US citizen to fire my competent, experienced immigrant coworkers and replace them with some noobs who memorized FizzBuzz? I mean maybe it puts me in a better negotiating position if you artificially cap supply, but if my team fails to ship a product and meet our OKRs, that seems like a much bigger effect on my salary.
- geebee 7y ago
  I worked for a company that hired heavily through the H1b. The ceo was a good guy who worked in good faith but he was replaced with a bit of an asshole who moved the office from The north bay to the South Bay, changed to an open office, and banned telecommuting (“because this is what google does”, though evidently the free meals, gym, and other things google does had less appeal to him). Most of the us citizens quit, but the h1b holders, many of whom were still in the green card queue, stuck it out. I absolutely do not fault them for this. It was during the 2008 banking crisis and losing a job could be a severe setback from an immigration perspective in that market. However it did mean that the company got away with bullying their workforce in a way that would not fly if workers were free members of the society they live in, rather than people who are allowed here only if they remain in the good graces of their employer. I could go on about why this isn’t good for the tech workforce in general, but I hope it’s pretty clear. I hope it’s also clear that you can support immigration without thinking this is a good arrangement for workers. In fact I’m bewildered that people think it’s pro immigrant to put corporations in control of the system like this
  - geofft 7y ago
    Yes, I agree wholeheartedly - the H-1B tied hands system is bad (and your story is a perfect example of how it acts as a massive government interference in free markets and what precisely goes wrong). The application process being discussed here is about green cards, which remove those handcuffs from the workers. Those companies which do sponsor green cards are basically giving up their ability to pressure workers in these ways. Still, it seems clear to me that the employees are happier staying (and having joined knowing this risk) than going back to their original country, even despite the downsides. I'd say the underlying problem here isn't "Hire American" but "Don't create a class of workers that are stuck at their employer's company." American workers are better off when their H-1B coworkers can credibly threaten to quit.
esoterica 7y ago
It’s illegal to discriminate on the basis of citizenship status. You can decline to sponsor visas, but if an immigrant already has work authorization you cannot refuse to hire them just because they are not a citizen.

1996 7y ago

It benefits the warm fuzzy feelings nationalists get when they think "one less foreigner" Note how I sad their feelings- it doesn't benefit even the nationalist, as lower quality products costing more don't benefit anyone.

supercanuck 7y ago

They could increase their offer and attract more talent? They could make the job more favorable to local talent. Who does this benefit? American Software Engineers. The United States. Tax Payers? Or we could depress wages by bringing in outside labor and applying handcuffs (H1-B) which will depress wages further. The company wants all the benefits and efficiencies of being in America without paying into the system

geofft 7y ago
> They could increase their offer and attract more talent? They could make the job more favorable to local talent. If we already have a good engineer who's part of the team and lives locally, what specifically is the benefit to firing this engineer and replacing them with "local" talent? Why is making the job more favorable to "local talent" advantageous? > American Software Engineers. The United States. Tax Payers? Again, as an American software engineer who badly needs qualified engineers on my team - what is the specific benefit to me?