4 ms·

If your issue is that tax payer money is being stolen then presumably open access should only be granted to citizens of a country, for research arising from aca

by anjc 7y ago

If your issue is that tax payer money is being stolen then presumably open access should only be granted to citizens of a country, for research arising from academic institutions in that country? Otherwise countries will similarly be stealing tax payer money from one another. Actually, do public libraries get access to Elsevier etc?

y4mi 7y ago
i'm not sure i follow... the GP is basically saying: "its paid for by public money, it shouldn't be restricted" how do you get from that to "i cant let anyone but people from my country look at this"? there no logic in that whatsoever
- anjc 7y ago
  The argument seems to be that access to research should be unrestricted because "scientific publishers represent institutionalised theft of tax payer money", i.e. that theft of tax payer money is bad. In that case, why should people who live in tax havens, low-tax countries, or countries that don't adequately fund academia, have their access to research subsidised by people who live in high tax countries and who fund the research via tax? This seems like the same issue except at a higher level, i.e. sovereign theft instead of institutional? I have no problem with open access by the way, I'm not advocating for restrictive publishing practices here.
  - y4mi 7y ago
    still doesn't make sense because the foreign nations aren't depriving the people paying for the research of the information they paid for via taxes. theft means that something was taken away from somebody else. this clearly isnt the case in your scenario, as the foreign nations just copied it.
gdxhyrd 7y ago
> open access should only be granted to citizens of a country, for research arising from academic institutions in that country? Fine with me, then countries can sort it out between themselves. Easy, considering way harder things have been done in international academic efforts. > Actually, do public libraries get access to Elsevier etc? No, they don't.
vincent-toups 7y ago
The presumption you're making is that a country would never spend money for the public good, where that is defined to include the entire human race, rather than just nationals. Weird assumption! Generally speaking, academic research is considered to be an international, or super-national, cooperative effort in most fields.
- naringas 7y ago
  > The presumption you're making is that a country would never spend money for the public good I have just realized that I assume this to be the case. If a government ever does that is simply a collateral effect of their main purpose which is enrichment of the politicans involved in the process.
- anjc 7y ago
  I don't make this assumption. I simply think OPs argument that research should be open because tax payers have funded it is weak, for the reason I stated, i.e. it implies that non-tax payers should not have access, or conversely, implies that taxpayers in each country should get to decide how this research is distributed, possibly restricting access to non-nationals. > The presumption you're making is that a country would never spend money for the public good, where that is defined to include the entire human race, rather than just nationals. I think in general this is the case? Obviously governments budget for foreign aid, and also contribute to collective efforts e.g. climate change or (relevant to this discussion) EU funds such as Horizon 2020. But I don't think any governments do/should consider "the public" as meaning "the entire human race".
  - travisporter 7y ago
    1. A->B does not imply !A->!B 2. Government foreign aid is a counterexample
    - anjc 7y ago
      I don't know what's meant to be A and B here. I already listed foreign aid as a counterexample in the post you're replying to.
dredmorbius 7y ago
The fact much research is tax-subsidised is one but not the only argument for open public access to scientific research papers. Other arguments argue for broader access. And tax-based support alone does not argue for closed access to a single country. There are tax-supported activities which aren't limited to benefiting, strictly, any or all of: taxpayers, citizens, or even residents of countries, among the latter foreign aid and cultural support. The last of which scientific knowledge is an element.

by anjc 7y ago

y4mi 7y ago

i'm not sure i follow... the GP is basically saying: "its paid for by public money, it shouldn't be restricted" how do you get from that to "i cant let anyone but people from my country look at this"? there no logic in that whatsoever

anjc 7y ago
The argument seems to be that access to research should be unrestricted because "scientific publishers represent institutionalised theft of tax payer money", i.e. that theft of tax payer money is bad. In that case, why should people who live in tax havens, low-tax countries, or countries that don't adequately fund academia, have their access to research subsidised by people who live in high tax countries and who fund the research via tax? This seems like the same issue except at a higher level, i.e. sovereign theft instead of institutional? I have no problem with open access by the way, I'm not advocating for restrictive publishing practices here.
- y4mi 7y ago
  still doesn't make sense because the foreign nations aren't depriving the people paying for the research of the information they paid for via taxes. theft means that something was taken away from somebody else. this clearly isnt the case in your scenario, as the foreign nations just copied it.

gdxhyrd 7y ago

> open access should only be granted to citizens of a country, for research arising from academic institutions in that country? Fine with me, then countries can sort it out between themselves. Easy, considering way harder things have been done in international academic efforts. > Actually, do public libraries get access to Elsevier etc? No, they don't.

vincent-toups 7y ago

The presumption you're making is that a country would never spend money for the public good, where that is defined to include the entire human race, rather than just nationals. Weird assumption! Generally speaking, academic research is considered to be an international, or super-national, cooperative effort in most fields.

naringas 7y ago
> The presumption you're making is that a country would never spend money for the public good I have just realized that I assume this to be the case. If a government ever does that is simply a collateral effect of their main purpose which is enrichment of the politicans involved in the process.
anjc 7y ago
I don't make this assumption. I simply think OPs argument that research should be open because tax payers have funded it is weak, for the reason I stated, i.e. it implies that non-tax payers should not have access, or conversely, implies that taxpayers in each country should get to decide how this research is distributed, possibly restricting access to non-nationals. > The presumption you're making is that a country would never spend money for the public good, where that is defined to include the entire human race, rather than just nationals. I think in general this is the case? Obviously governments budget for foreign aid, and also contribute to collective efforts e.g. climate change or (relevant to this discussion) EU funds such as Horizon 2020. But I don't think any governments do/should consider "the public" as meaning "the entire human race".
- travisporter 7y ago
  1. A->B does not imply !A->!B 2. Government foreign aid is a counterexample
  - anjc 7y ago
    I don't know what's meant to be A and B here. I already listed foreign aid as a counterexample in the post you're replying to.

dredmorbius 7y ago

The fact much research is tax-subsidised is one but not the only argument for open public access to scientific research papers. Other arguments argue for broader access. And tax-based support alone does not argue for closed access to a single country. There are tax-supported activities which aren't limited to benefiting, strictly, any or all of: taxpayers, citizens, or even residents of countries, among the latter foreign aid and cultural support. The last of which scientific knowledge is an element.