5 ms·

If you’re referring to the Bible verse Leviticus 20:13, well, I’m sorry to say that the excerpt from “The God Delusion” or wherever you learned this simplistic

by shijie 7y ago

If you’re referring to the Bible verse Leviticus 20:13, well, I’m sorry to say that the excerpt from “The God Delusion” or wherever you learned this simplistic piece of misinformation is, in fact, incorrect. Shocker. In fact, there is no account of capital punishment, in regards to this law (killing homosexual men), in Jewish history. As for Judaism, Rabbinic tradition understands the Torah's system of capital punishment to not be in effect for the past approximately 2,000 years, in the absence of a Sanhedrin and Temple. And as for Christianity, Leviticus and indeed the entirety of the Law of Moses was fulfilled by Jesus Christ. And so no, neither Jews nor Christians practice this at all.

lazysheepherd 7y ago
Did not know about it, so just checked +20 different versions/translations[1] of the said verse in the bible, and scripture could not have been sharper and clearer on several points; - men who had sex with another men - should be killed - they deserve it Would you point me to a source/insight maybe? Else I will believe, that this is too, as I have witnessed countless times personally, nothing but an apologetic approach to horrors religious scripture in modern age. 1: https://biblehub.com/leviticus/20-13.htm https://biblehub.com/leviticus/20-13.htm
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  It says the same thing about men who have sex with their wives during the latter’s menstrual cycle, in the same chapter. OTOH, like virtually of the rest of the old testament statutes applicable to the Jewish people, these and most of the other prohibitions in that chapter and the surrounding ones is voided as to non-Jewish Christians (though one might infer from it a continuing prohibition on same sex marriage from it), see Acts 15:28-29, where the apostles, addressing the acts of some in the early Christian community attempting to apply the Mosaic law in its entirety to gentile Christians, declared: “It is the decision of the holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities, namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage. If you keep free of these, you will be doing what is right. Farewell.” Now, it's true that some modern Christians do exactly (or, rather more often, a cherry-picked subset of it) what the council in Acts 15—directed, as Scripture says, by the Holy Spirit—reacted against and declared invalid.
  - tripzilch 7y ago
    .. so we should be thankful that there's even worse ideas in there that nobody is doing!
- sgt101 7y ago
  Ask yourself (and your bible) "what did Jesus say"? And "what would Jesus do"? I believe that Jesus did not speak at all about homosexuality. There is no indication that he attacked or held any anger towards homosexuals. Conversely Jesus was strongly anti-capitalist! No money changing or animal selling in temples folks! But fundamentally - when reading the bible your question must be "am I a Christian - or not?" what is the purpose of Jesus's ministry and passion if he did not bring a message and a purpose beyond and more significant than the messages revealed to prophets and his servants? If you are a Christian surely your preoccupation must be his word - and more importantly his meaning; interpreted in the context of his explicitly stated principles and lived actions.
  - ben_w 7y ago
    It’s fine that you interpret the bible that way. Certainly I’ve seen Christian pro-gay-rights memes that say Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. Unfortunately, this whole thread seems to be on the topic of “It’s a shame that mass-dissemination of information demonstrably fails to make the best ideas into the most popular ideas [0]” — and although you interpret the bible that way, I’ve witnessed many profess Christianity while also condemning gay men. [0] Well, unless you take the memetic evolution attitude that “best” isn’t a moral statement but shorthand for “best at reproducing”, but if anyone on this thread has said that, I’ve missed it.
    - sgt101 7y ago
      To paraphrase someone else "to the extent that their beliefs and actions differ from the words and deeds of Christ they are not Christians". Remember there have been 1000's of people practicing grotesque child abuse while professing Christianity, and yet one of the most frank and flat statements of Christ is "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."
      - ben_w 7y ago
        Ick factor aside, that sounds like a “No True Scotsman” argument to me. Be aware that if I, as a lapsed neopagan, am asked to judge which Christians are acting in accordance with the deeds and words of an entity that I regard as fictional as my own pantheon, there might not be any “True Christians” left. To focus on the point, how about a biblical example: Parable of the Sower, specifically that sown on the path and in the thorns.
- John23832 7y ago
  Right... the argument that “that isn’t the original Hebrew” is moot. People read their versions of the Bible and most versions are explicit in their aversion to gays.
  - quietbritishjim 7y ago
    I think you have misinterpreted the parent comment. I'm pretty sure they're saying "if all these translations unanimously agreed that's what the original Hebrew said, then that really is what it said", but you seem to have interpreted it as "look at how many translations are wrong!". Is that right, or did I misunderstand you? If that is what you're saying, do you have a reason to disagree with all of those translations? Can you offer your own for that passage?
- seandougall 7y ago
  3 Galatians is largely a deprecation notice for all the Old Testament laws (at least in the context of Christianity). But yeah, some people like to ignore that and use Leviticus to bolster their twisted political views, and if you take it in isolation, it does come across as pretty clear-cut. (edit: and if you accept their four-degrees-of-game-of-telephone translation at face value, as sibling comment points out)
- shijie 7y ago
  .
- yrxuthst 7y ago
  As a professing Christian, I would say your reading is correct, but this verse (like the rest of the ceremonial and judicial laws) is a command given specifically to Israel, not to all readers. Capital punishment is very common in this code of law, as it was in other civilizations from this time period. There are many laws that have to do with keeping sin and impurity/health risks out of the camp, and this is, by biblical standards, both of those. By modern standards it's a terrible law, but it was never intended for modern use.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    So why is it still there? I'm sure that at least some Abrahamic writings didn't get included in the Christian Bible. Or even in the Tanakh.
    - dragonwriter 7y ago
      > So why is it still there? Why is it part of the Christian Canon? Because it provides important context for later material, e.g., Acts 15. The controversy in the early Christian Community over the application of the Jewish ritual law to gentile Christians is hard to understand without the Jewish ritual law. Also, not all Christians are gentile Christians.
      - mirimir 7y ago
        Thanks. Maybe this is a dumb question (having had no religious instruction) but do all modern Christians (except, I guess, some fundamentalists) understand that the Old Testament doesn't apply to them? If that's so, it seems like that stuff should be flagged somehow, to avoid misunderstandings. Or do some modern gentile Christians perhaps go further, and believe that the old Jewish ritual law was a misunderstanding, and not an accurate statement of God's will? And if so, who are they? Also, who are the modern non-gentile Christians? I found a site that explains some of this,[0] but have no clue about its reliability. The root is here.[1] 0) http://www.winternet.com/~swezeyt/bible/origins/jwGn.htm http://www.winternet.com/~swezeyt/bible/origins/jwGn.htm 1) http://www.winternet.com/~swezeyt/bible/origins/originsMain.htm http://www.winternet.com/~swezeyt/bible/origins/originsMain....
MiroF 7y ago
But the book straight up says that, right? Like regardless of what was actually done, it literally says it right there: 'If a man lies with a man as with a woman, they have both committed an abomination. They must surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.'
- swiley 7y ago
  That sounds like ancient Jewish law. The whole point of Christianity is that the ancient Jewish law isn’t valid anymore because of Christ.
  - ohithereyou 7y ago
    Incorrect: https://biblehub.com/matthew/5-17.htm https://biblehub.com/matthew/5-17.htm
    - nzealand 7y ago
      The christian bible was independently written by multiple authors over hundreds of years. If you are going to treat these writings as a single cohesive narrative, you still have to keep in mind the context. One of the most interesting aspects of the writings Jesus, is that he only ever taught Jews. Jesus in fact never really laid out a formal theology of what to do after his death, he simply stresses that the second coming would be very soon. The only person to discuss the applicability of the Torah to non jewish followers of Jesus is Paul. Paul is extremely clear that the Jewish law does not apply to non Jews. It's also interesting that Paul never met Jesus, that Paul persecuted christians until a burning bush talked to Paul in a moment of divine inspiration, and afterwards Paul largely relied on his excellent knowledge of jewish scripture to explain why the jewish scripture no longer applied anymore.
    - drdeca 7y ago
      I think this point could use more commentary and context. There are many verses which deal with “what now if the law?”, and I think a fuller understanding requires reading more than one of them. For example, there is, of course, the parts about the dietary restrictions part of the law. But that isn’t all. Male converts to Judaism were required to be circumcised, but NT verses say that this is not required to convert to Christianity (though, not phrased like that of course), and in talking about this, it also talks about what the law succeeds in, and what it, well, not fails in, but, it’s insufficiency in the face of human failure? I’m saying this not to say that the NT condones sex between two cisgender men (indeed, I believe that at one point after the resurrection, some apostles are on an island, and are telling the people there about Christ, and the text describes the homosexual sexual practices practiced by those native to the island as (in at least one common translation. This is by memory.) as “unnatural”, which seems to me to indicate disapproval, though I haven’t looked at commentary on how this was worded in the original Greek.) My apologies for not including links and citations; I haven’t gotten out of bed yet this morning, and am typing this on my phone.

by shijie 7y ago

lazysheepherd 7y ago

Did not know about it, so just checked +20 different versions/translations[1] of the said verse in the bible, and scripture could not have been sharper and clearer on several points; - men who had sex with another men - should be killed - they deserve it Would you point me to a source/insight maybe? Else I will believe, that this is too, as I have witnessed countless times personally, nothing but an apologetic approach to horrors religious scripture in modern age. 1: https://biblehub.com/leviticus/20-13.htm https://biblehub.com/leviticus/20-13.htm

dragonwriter 7y ago
It says the same thing about men who have sex with their wives during the latter’s menstrual cycle, in the same chapter. OTOH, like virtually of the rest of the old testament statutes applicable to the Jewish people, these and most of the other prohibitions in that chapter and the surrounding ones is voided as to non-Jewish Christians (though one might infer from it a continuing prohibition on same sex marriage from it), see Acts 15:28-29, where the apostles, addressing the acts of some in the early Christian community attempting to apply the Mosaic law in its entirety to gentile Christians, declared: “It is the decision of the holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities, namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage. If you keep free of these, you will be doing what is right. Farewell.” Now, it's true that some modern Christians do exactly (or, rather more often, a cherry-picked subset of it) what the council in Acts 15—directed, as Scripture says, by the Holy Spirit—reacted against and declared invalid.
- tripzilch 7y ago
  .. so we should be thankful that there's even worse ideas in there that nobody is doing!
sgt101 7y ago
Ask yourself (and your bible) "what did Jesus say"? And "what would Jesus do"? I believe that Jesus did not speak at all about homosexuality. There is no indication that he attacked or held any anger towards homosexuals. Conversely Jesus was strongly anti-capitalist! No money changing or animal selling in temples folks! But fundamentally - when reading the bible your question must be "am I a Christian - or not?" what is the purpose of Jesus's ministry and passion if he did not bring a message and a purpose beyond and more significant than the messages revealed to prophets and his servants? If you are a Christian surely your preoccupation must be his word - and more importantly his meaning; interpreted in the context of his explicitly stated principles and lived actions.
- ben_w 7y ago
  It’s fine that you interpret the bible that way. Certainly I’ve seen Christian pro-gay-rights memes that say Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. Unfortunately, this whole thread seems to be on the topic of “It’s a shame that mass-dissemination of information demonstrably fails to make the best ideas into the most popular ideas [0]” — and although you interpret the bible that way, I’ve witnessed many profess Christianity while also condemning gay men. [0] Well, unless you take the memetic evolution attitude that “best” isn’t a moral statement but shorthand for “best at reproducing”, but if anyone on this thread has said that, I’ve missed it.
  - sgt101 7y ago
    To paraphrase someone else "to the extent that their beliefs and actions differ from the words and deeds of Christ they are not Christians". Remember there have been 1000's of people practicing grotesque child abuse while professing Christianity, and yet one of the most frank and flat statements of Christ is "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."
    - ben_w 7y ago
      Ick factor aside, that sounds like a “No True Scotsman” argument to me. Be aware that if I, as a lapsed neopagan, am asked to judge which Christians are acting in accordance with the deeds and words of an entity that I regard as fictional as my own pantheon, there might not be any “True Christians” left. To focus on the point, how about a biblical example: Parable of the Sower, specifically that sown on the path and in the thorns.
John23832 7y ago
Right... the argument that “that isn’t the original Hebrew” is moot. People read their versions of the Bible and most versions are explicit in their aversion to gays.
- quietbritishjim 7y ago
  I think you have misinterpreted the parent comment. I'm pretty sure they're saying "if all these translations unanimously agreed that's what the original Hebrew said, then that really is what it said", but you seem to have interpreted it as "look at how many translations are wrong!". Is that right, or did I misunderstand you? If that is what you're saying, do you have a reason to disagree with all of those translations? Can you offer your own for that passage?
seandougall 7y ago
3 Galatians is largely a deprecation notice for all the Old Testament laws (at least in the context of Christianity). But yeah, some people like to ignore that and use Leviticus to bolster their twisted political views, and if you take it in isolation, it does come across as pretty clear-cut. (edit: and if you accept their four-degrees-of-game-of-telephone translation at face value, as sibling comment points out)
shijie 7y ago
.
yrxuthst 7y ago
As a professing Christian, I would say your reading is correct, but this verse (like the rest of the ceremonial and judicial laws) is a command given specifically to Israel, not to all readers. Capital punishment is very common in this code of law, as it was in other civilizations from this time period. There are many laws that have to do with keeping sin and impurity/health risks out of the camp, and this is, by biblical standards, both of those. By modern standards it's a terrible law, but it was never intended for modern use.
- mirimir 7y ago
  So why is it still there? I'm sure that at least some Abrahamic writings didn't get included in the Christian Bible. Or even in the Tanakh.
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    > So why is it still there? Why is it part of the Christian Canon? Because it provides important context for later material, e.g., Acts 15. The controversy in the early Christian Community over the application of the Jewish ritual law to gentile Christians is hard to understand without the Jewish ritual law. Also, not all Christians are gentile Christians.
    - mirimir 7y ago
      Thanks. Maybe this is a dumb question (having had no religious instruction) but do all modern Christians (except, I guess, some fundamentalists) understand that the Old Testament doesn't apply to them? If that's so, it seems like that stuff should be flagged somehow, to avoid misunderstandings. Or do some modern gentile Christians perhaps go further, and believe that the old Jewish ritual law was a misunderstanding, and not an accurate statement of God's will? And if so, who are they? Also, who are the modern non-gentile Christians? I found a site that explains some of this,[0] but have no clue about its reliability. The root is here.[1] 0) http://www.winternet.com/~swezeyt/bible/origins/jwGn.htm http://www.winternet.com/~swezeyt/bible/origins/jwGn.htm 1) http://www.winternet.com/~swezeyt/bible/origins/originsMain.htm http://www.winternet.com/~swezeyt/bible/origins/originsMain....

MiroF 7y ago

But the book straight up says that, right? Like regardless of what was actually done, it literally says it right there: 'If a man lies with a man as with a woman, they have both committed an abomination. They must surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.'

swiley 7y ago
That sounds like ancient Jewish law. The whole point of Christianity is that the ancient Jewish law isn’t valid anymore because of Christ.
- ohithereyou 7y ago
  Incorrect: https://biblehub.com/matthew/5-17.htm https://biblehub.com/matthew/5-17.htm
  - nzealand 7y ago
    The christian bible was independently written by multiple authors over hundreds of years. If you are going to treat these writings as a single cohesive narrative, you still have to keep in mind the context. One of the most interesting aspects of the writings Jesus, is that he only ever taught Jews. Jesus in fact never really laid out a formal theology of what to do after his death, he simply stresses that the second coming would be very soon. The only person to discuss the applicability of the Torah to non jewish followers of Jesus is Paul. Paul is extremely clear that the Jewish law does not apply to non Jews. It's also interesting that Paul never met Jesus, that Paul persecuted christians until a burning bush talked to Paul in a moment of divine inspiration, and afterwards Paul largely relied on his excellent knowledge of jewish scripture to explain why the jewish scripture no longer applied anymore.
  - drdeca 7y ago
    I think this point could use more commentary and context. There are many verses which deal with “what now if the law?”, and I think a fuller understanding requires reading more than one of them. For example, there is, of course, the parts about the dietary restrictions part of the law. But that isn’t all. Male converts to Judaism were required to be circumcised, but NT verses say that this is not required to convert to Christianity (though, not phrased like that of course), and in talking about this, it also talks about what the law succeeds in, and what it, well, not fails in, but, it’s insufficiency in the face of human failure? I’m saying this not to say that the NT condones sex between two cisgender men (indeed, I believe that at one point after the resurrection, some apostles are on an island, and are telling the people there about Christ, and the text describes the homosexual sexual practices practiced by those native to the island as (in at least one common translation. This is by memory.) as “unnatural”, which seems to me to indicate disapproval, though I haven’t looked at commentary on how this was worded in the original Greek.) My apologies for not including links and citations; I haven’t gotten out of bed yet this morning, and am typing this on my phone.