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Smith's pin factory example was taken straight from old muslim philosophy of the Caliphate. Turns out there is no such thing as 'western civilization' since mos

by mempko 7y ago

Smith's pin factory example was taken straight from old muslim philosophy of the Caliphate. Turns out there is no such thing as 'western civilization' since most ideas are remixes, including cross cultural ones.

krapp 7y ago
>Turns out there is no such thing as 'western civilization' since most ideas are remixes, including cross cultural ones. There's no such thing as "pure" Western civilization, nor is there such a thing as a "pure" culture, in the sense of being uninfluenced by lateral cultural transfer. Even Japan, which is often held up as an example of a "unique and homogeneous" culture is deeply influenced by its neighbors (particularly Imperial China) and centuries of interaction with the West. But in terms of broad influences - Christianity, Greek and Roman influence, Shakespeare, common linguistic and political roots, etc, I think it's clear that "Western civilization" does at least exist in a broad sense.
- earthboundkid 7y ago
  If you want to be a splitter rather than a lumper, that’s fine, but there’s no reasonable division that separate “Muslims” from “The West”. There just is no historical separation between our societies for the obvious reason that they’re geographically adjacent and have been in continuous contact, unlike say “The West” and India or China or the Americas. European philosophy was explicitly founded when medieval universities were set up like Islamic schools and teaching Averoes and Avicenna. Before that, Aristotle and Plato had been all but lost to the Latins. Chemistry is from “al-quemi” and algebra is “al-jebra”. It’s really only post-fall of the Ottoman Empire that you see even a notional sense that our civilizations are disconnected. Splitting them now is just pro-war propaganda being laundered through bad history.
  - krapp 7y ago
    I don't necessarily want to be either - I consider culture to be a continuum rather than a fixed state. And you're right, Islam shares a common heritage with Christianity and Judaism (despite being conspicuously absent from the "Judeo-Christian" moniker) so it makes no sense to consider the influence of only two.
    - earthboundkid 7y ago
      It’s not just that they’re Abrahamic. “Western civilization” if it means anything means “Abrahamic religion plus Greek philosophy” as the two main traditional schools of thought. India and China don’t have that. Islam does! They translated the Greeks and introduced it to the Latin speakers between the fall of Rome and the Renaissance. It would be like cutting Augustine out of Western civilization because he lived in Tunisia.

by mempko 7y ago

krapp 7y ago

>Turns out there is no such thing as 'western civilization' since most ideas are remixes, including cross cultural ones. There's no such thing as "pure" Western civilization, nor is there such a thing as a "pure" culture, in the sense of being uninfluenced by lateral cultural transfer. Even Japan, which is often held up as an example of a "unique and homogeneous" culture is deeply influenced by its neighbors (particularly Imperial China) and centuries of interaction with the West. But in terms of broad influences - Christianity, Greek and Roman influence, Shakespeare, common linguistic and political roots, etc, I think it's clear that "Western civilization" does at least exist in a broad sense.

earthboundkid 7y ago
If you want to be a splitter rather than a lumper, that’s fine, but there’s no reasonable division that separate “Muslims” from “The West”. There just is no historical separation between our societies for the obvious reason that they’re geographically adjacent and have been in continuous contact, unlike say “The West” and India or China or the Americas. European philosophy was explicitly founded when medieval universities were set up like Islamic schools and teaching Averoes and Avicenna. Before that, Aristotle and Plato had been all but lost to the Latins. Chemistry is from “al-quemi” and algebra is “al-jebra”. It’s really only post-fall of the Ottoman Empire that you see even a notional sense that our civilizations are disconnected. Splitting them now is just pro-war propaganda being laundered through bad history.
- krapp 7y ago
  I don't necessarily want to be either - I consider culture to be a continuum rather than a fixed state. And you're right, Islam shares a common heritage with Christianity and Judaism (despite being conspicuously absent from the "Judeo-Christian" moniker) so it makes no sense to consider the influence of only two.
  - earthboundkid 7y ago
    It’s not just that they’re Abrahamic. “Western civilization” if it means anything means “Abrahamic religion plus Greek philosophy” as the two main traditional schools of thought. India and China don’t have that. Islam does! They translated the Greeks and introduced it to the Latin speakers between the fall of Rome and the Renaissance. It would be like cutting Augustine out of Western civilization because he lived in Tunisia.