5 ms·

I occasionally think about the end of The Man in the High Castle, when the characters realize they are living in a fictional alternate history.

boring_twenties 7y ago
WTF man? Not everyone has read everything already...
- selestify 7y ago
  It’s been out for decades, surely spoilers are expired now by any reasonable time limit
  - acollins1331 7y ago
    O K B O O M E R
- saalweachter 7y ago
  While I am fine with the social conventions that hold spoiling recent works as anathema, or even older works within limited contexts (for instance, /r/WoT tries to allow readers to talk about the early books without instantly being spoiled for the later ones), the absurd demands people make to not "spoil" any book or movie people still read or watch recreationally -- and not just as a homework assignment -- is harmful. The metaphors, the concepts, the philosophies expressed in books, even trashy 1960's SF, are important. They are tools we can use to explain, to convince, to argue, to communicate. Demanding that we never speak aloud in any public place the words from any work of art more recent than Black Beauty (is that too recent? Is it OK to at least reference the end of Romeo and Juliet?) is demanding that we weaken ourselves, like Harrison Bergeron in Kurt Vonnegut's short story of the same name, and only communicate at the level of the least well-read individual in any society. If books are not going to contribute to discourse, if we cannot tell other people of what we read, we might as well burn them all, as in Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451. And at the end of the day, the only thing being protected by fervent cries of "spoilers!" "spoilers!" are the barest, sparsest facts of the story: if finding out the ending of a story is the only reason to read it, you were probably done a favor by having it "spoiled". Journey before destination.
  - boring_twenties 7y ago
    While I appreciate your thorough and heartfelt response here, what I don't understand is how your comment would have been diminished in any way without the explicit spoiler? Anyone who has already read the book would get it anyway. Everyone else wouldn't be any worse off, since that simple summary doesn't help understand the nuance of why it reminded of the ending. The only thing it does is spoil the ending. > If finding out the ending of a story is the only reason to read it, you were probably done a favor by having it "spoiled" False dichotomy much? It's not the only reason, but it's certainly a decent sized factor in the enjoyment of a novel. I certainly don't feel like you did me any favors.
bonestamp2 7y ago
!!! SPOILER ALERT ABOVE !!! Hopefully you saw this before reading the above comment.
- jordigh 7y ago
  Spoiler alerts are a 20th century invention. Everyone has been taught to get angry about spoilers, but the very word "spoiler" itself is an internet invention coined in Usenet. The idea of society at large working hard to keep a fictional story secret is a marketing ploy invented by Alfred Hitchcock to sell more movie tickets to his mystery films. It used to be common to know everything about a story before you even experienced it, and there is evidence that despite what people say, they actually enjoy stories even more if they know beforehand how the story ends. http://www.wired.com/2011/08/spoilers-dont-spoil-anything/ http://www.wired.com/2011/08/spoilers-dont-spoil-anything/ If a story isn't worth reading if you already know the ending, it's not worth reading without knowing the ending either. Good stories cannot be spoiled. Good stories are not merely puzzles to be savoured for a single punchline. We also enjoy stories we already know well. It's why James Bond movies keep getting churned out despite all following the exact same formula or why Shakespeare plays are still in production centuries after they were written. Only bad stories are ruined by knowing the story.
  - lightedman 7y ago
    " but the very word "spoiler" is an internet invention coined in Usenet," Spoiler as a word was around in avionics well before UseNet even existed.
    - jordigh 7y ago
      Obviously I mean in the meaning of "spoil a story"; of course the precise sequence of characters of "ess, pee, oh, eye, ell, ee, are" existed before.
  - schnevets 7y ago
    This is a fascinating perspective I never really considered. The implications of "Spoiler Culture" on modern storytelling and consuming entertainment really are massive. The seasonal buzz about Christmas movies has me dwelling on the paradox between the backlog vs. the new release. 21st century entertainers are competing against an entire century of modern culture available to viewers in a second. How is it that my home has Netflix, HBO, and Hulu, and yet my wife and I are still paralyzed about what to watch every night? Why do we naturally lean towards the fresh thing on the front page? Movies and other art forms are just bandwidth now, so Hollywood has to artificially set the value through marketing and buzz. It seems like every studio is combating this existential threat in different ways (Sunday night dramas that trigger water cooler conversations, visually stunning films that are meant for the big screen, twist-filled plotlines, podcasts and other media focused on discussing the "latest episodes").

boring_twenties 7y ago

WTF man? Not everyone has read everything already...

selestify 7y ago
It’s been out for decades, surely spoilers are expired now by any reasonable time limit
- acollins1331 7y ago
  O K B O O M E R
saalweachter 7y ago
While I am fine with the social conventions that hold spoiling recent works as anathema, or even older works within limited contexts (for instance, /r/WoT tries to allow readers to talk about the early books without instantly being spoiled for the later ones), the absurd demands people make to not "spoil" any book or movie people still read or watch recreationally -- and not just as a homework assignment -- is harmful. The metaphors, the concepts, the philosophies expressed in books, even trashy 1960's SF, are important. They are tools we can use to explain, to convince, to argue, to communicate. Demanding that we never speak aloud in any public place the words from any work of art more recent than Black Beauty (is that too recent? Is it OK to at least reference the end of Romeo and Juliet?) is demanding that we weaken ourselves, like Harrison Bergeron in Kurt Vonnegut's short story of the same name, and only communicate at the level of the least well-read individual in any society. If books are not going to contribute to discourse, if we cannot tell other people of what we read, we might as well burn them all, as in Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451. And at the end of the day, the only thing being protected by fervent cries of "spoilers!" "spoilers!" are the barest, sparsest facts of the story: if finding out the ending of a story is the only reason to read it, you were probably done a favor by having it "spoiled". Journey before destination.
- boring_twenties 7y ago
  While I appreciate your thorough and heartfelt response here, what I don't understand is how your comment would have been diminished in any way without the explicit spoiler? Anyone who has already read the book would get it anyway. Everyone else wouldn't be any worse off, since that simple summary doesn't help understand the nuance of why it reminded of the ending. The only thing it does is spoil the ending. > If finding out the ending of a story is the only reason to read it, you were probably done a favor by having it "spoiled" False dichotomy much? It's not the only reason, but it's certainly a decent sized factor in the enjoyment of a novel. I certainly don't feel like you did me any favors.

bonestamp2 7y ago

!!! SPOILER ALERT ABOVE !!! Hopefully you saw this before reading the above comment.

jordigh 7y ago
Spoiler alerts are a 20th century invention. Everyone has been taught to get angry about spoilers, but the very word "spoiler" itself is an internet invention coined in Usenet. The idea of society at large working hard to keep a fictional story secret is a marketing ploy invented by Alfred Hitchcock to sell more movie tickets to his mystery films. It used to be common to know everything about a story before you even experienced it, and there is evidence that despite what people say, they actually enjoy stories even more if they know beforehand how the story ends. http://www.wired.com/2011/08/spoilers-dont-spoil-anything/ http://www.wired.com/2011/08/spoilers-dont-spoil-anything/ If a story isn't worth reading if you already know the ending, it's not worth reading without knowing the ending either. Good stories cannot be spoiled. Good stories are not merely puzzles to be savoured for a single punchline. We also enjoy stories we already know well. It's why James Bond movies keep getting churned out despite all following the exact same formula or why Shakespeare plays are still in production centuries after they were written. Only bad stories are ruined by knowing the story.
- lightedman 7y ago
  " but the very word "spoiler" is an internet invention coined in Usenet," Spoiler as a word was around in avionics well before UseNet even existed.
  - jordigh 7y ago
    Obviously I mean in the meaning of "spoil a story"; of course the precise sequence of characters of "ess, pee, oh, eye, ell, ee, are" existed before.
- schnevets 7y ago
  This is a fascinating perspective I never really considered. The implications of "Spoiler Culture" on modern storytelling and consuming entertainment really are massive. The seasonal buzz about Christmas movies has me dwelling on the paradox between the backlog vs. the new release. 21st century entertainers are competing against an entire century of modern culture available to viewers in a second. How is it that my home has Netflix, HBO, and Hulu, and yet my wife and I are still paralyzed about what to watch every night? Why do we naturally lean towards the fresh thing on the front page? Movies and other art forms are just bandwidth now, so Hollywood has to artificially set the value through marketing and buzz. It seems like every studio is combating this existential threat in different ways (Sunday night dramas that trigger water cooler conversations, visually stunning films that are meant for the big screen, twist-filled plotlines, podcasts and other media focused on discussing the "latest episodes").