17 ms·

Fake people reading and writing fake news on fake websites? If this keeps up, we'll end up with a fake President. Don't give me negative points, for this is a f

by tabtab 7y ago

Fake people reading and writing fake news on fake websites? If this keeps up, we'll end up with a fake President. Don't give me negative points, for this is a fake reply.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
dilyevsky 7y ago
The world has gone full Philip K Dick
- alexpetralia 7y ago
  For those interested in understanding the reference here, I found this useful: https://expressiveegg.org/2017/01/03/four-kinds-dystopia/ https://expressiveegg.org/2017/01/03/four-kinds-dystopia/
  - DonHopkins 7y ago
    It's Always Sunny in Phildickia.
- saalweachter 7y ago
  I occasionally think about the end of The Man in the High Castle, when the characters realize they are living in a fictional alternate history.
  - boring_twenties 7y ago
    WTF man? Not everyone has read everything already...
    - selestify 7y ago
      It’s been out for decades, surely spoilers are expired now by any reasonable time limit
      - acollins1331 7y ago
        O K B O O M E R
    - saalweachter 7y ago
      While I am fine with the social conventions that hold spoiling recent works as anathema, or even older works within limited contexts (for instance, /r/WoT tries to allow readers to talk about the early books without instantly being spoiled for the later ones), the absurd demands people make to not "spoil" any book or movie people still read or watch recreationally -- and not just as a homework assignment -- is harmful. The metaphors, the concepts, the philosophies expressed in books, even trashy 1960's SF, are important. They are tools we can use to explain, to convince, to argue, to communicate. Demanding that we never speak aloud in any public place the words from any work of art more recent than Black Beauty (is that too recent? Is it OK to at least reference the end of Romeo and Juliet?) is demanding that we weaken ourselves, like Harrison Bergeron in Kurt Vonnegut's short story of the same name, and only communicate at the level of the least well-read individual in any society. If books are not going to contribute to discourse, if we cannot tell other people of what we read, we might as well burn them all, as in Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451. And at the end of the day, the only thing being protected by fervent cries of "spoilers!" "spoilers!" are the barest, sparsest facts of the story: if finding out the ending of a story is the only reason to read it, you were probably done a favor by having it "spoiled". Journey before destination.
      - boring_twenties 7y ago
        While I appreciate your thorough and heartfelt response here, what I don't understand is how your comment would have been diminished in any way without the explicit spoiler? Anyone who has already read the book would get it anyway. Everyone else wouldn't be any worse off, since that simple summary doesn't help understand the nuance of why it reminded of the ending. The only thing it does is spoil the ending. > If finding out the ending of a story is the only reason to read it, you were probably done a favor by having it "spoiled" False dichotomy much? It's not the only reason, but it's certainly a decent sized factor in the enjoyment of a novel. I certainly don't feel like you did me any favors.
  - bonestamp2 7y ago
    !!! SPOILER ALERT ABOVE !!! Hopefully you saw this before reading the above comment.
    - jordigh 7y ago
      Spoiler alerts are a 20th century invention. Everyone has been taught to get angry about spoilers, but the very word "spoiler" itself is an internet invention coined in Usenet. The idea of society at large working hard to keep a fictional story secret is a marketing ploy invented by Alfred Hitchcock to sell more movie tickets to his mystery films. It used to be common to know everything about a story before you even experienced it, and there is evidence that despite what people say, they actually enjoy stories even more if they know beforehand how the story ends. http://www.wired.com/2011/08/spoilers-dont-spoil-anything/ http://www.wired.com/2011/08/spoilers-dont-spoil-anything/ If a story isn't worth reading if you already know the ending, it's not worth reading without knowing the ending either. Good stories cannot be spoiled. Good stories are not merely puzzles to be savoured for a single punchline. We also enjoy stories we already know well. It's why James Bond movies keep getting churned out despite all following the exact same formula or why Shakespeare plays are still in production centuries after they were written. Only bad stories are ruined by knowing the story.
      - lightedman 7y ago
        " but the very word "spoiler" is an internet invention coined in Usenet," Spoiler as a word was around in avionics well before UseNet even existed.
        jordigh 7y ago
        Obviously I mean in the meaning of "spoil a story"; of course the precise sequence of characters of "ess, pee, oh, eye, ell, ee, are" existed before.
      - schnevets 7y ago
        This is a fascinating perspective I never really considered. The implications of "Spoiler Culture" on modern storytelling and consuming entertainment really are massive. The seasonal buzz about Christmas movies has me dwelling on the paradox between the backlog vs. the new release. 21st century entertainers are competing against an entire century of modern culture available to viewers in a second. How is it that my home has Netflix, HBO, and Hulu, and yet my wife and I are still paralyzed about what to watch every night? Why do we naturally lean towards the fresh thing on the front page? Movies and other art forms are just bandwidth now, so Hollywood has to artificially set the value through marketing and buzz. It seems like every studio is combating this existential threat in different ways (Sunday night dramas that trigger water cooler conversations, visually stunning films that are meant for the big screen, twist-filled plotlines, podcasts and other media focused on discussing the "latest episodes").
- ydb 7y ago
  Except without the fun of a full-blown stimulant psychosis. Everyone is going crazy seeing pink ghosts and visiting ancient Rome entirely sober.
- DonHopkins 7y ago
  Do you mean the President Rudy Kalbfleisch simulacrum who keeps breaking down in "The Simulacra", or the President Abraham Lincoln simulacrum who doesn't want to be sold in "We Can Build You"? Or do you mean the world has gone full blown "Faith of our Fathers" where the government is putting hallucinogenic drugs in the water supply to keep us from discovering the truth about our glorious leader(s)? Or some other book written by the fake Philip K Dick simulacrum built by Hanson Robotics, who was was ostensibly lost on a flight from Dallas to San Francisco in late 2005, and is rumored to have absconded to an undisclosed location and rebooted his writing career on the Dark Web? https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/226460.The_Simulacra https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/226460.The_Simulacra The Simulacra, by Philip K. Dick. Set in the middle of the twenty-first century, The Simulacra is the story of an America where the whole government is a fraud and the President is an android. Against this backdrop Dr. Superb, the sole remaining psychotherapist, is struggling to practice in a world full of the maladjusted. Ian Duncan is desperately in love with the first lady, Nicole Thibideaux, who he has never met. Richard Kongrosian refuses to see anyone because he is convinced his body odor is lethal. And the fascistic Bertold Goltz is trying to overthrow the government. With wonderful aplomb, Philip K. Dick brings this story to a crashing conclusion and in classic fashion shows there is always another layer of conspiracy beneath the one we see. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/400270.We_Can_Build_You https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/400270.We_Can_Build_You We Can Build You, by Philip K. Dick. Louis Rosen and his partners sell people--ingeniously designed, historically authentic simulacra of personages such as Edwin M. Stanton and Abraham Lincoln. The problem is that the only prospective buyer is a rapacious billionaire whose plans for the simulacra could land Louis in jail. Then there's the added complication that someone--or something--like Abraham Lincoln may not want to be sold. Is an electronic Lincoln any less alive than his creators? Is a machine that cares and suffers inferior to the woman Louis loves--a borderline psychopath who does neither? With irresistible momentum, intelligence, and wit, Philip K. Dick creates an arresting techno-thriller that suggests a marriage of Bladerunner and Barbarians at the Gate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_of_Our_Fathers_(short_story) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_of_Our_Fathers_(short_st... Faith of Our Fathers, by Philip K Dick. Tung Chien is a Vietnamese bureaucrat in a world that has been conquered by Chinese-style atheist communism, where the population is kept docile with hallucinogenic drugs. When a street vendor gives Tung an illegal anti-hallucinogen, he discovers that the Party leader has a horrible secret. https://www.hansonrobotics.com/philip-k-dick/ https://www.hansonrobotics.com/philip-k-dick/ Philip K Dick, Research Robot. Activated in 2005, Hanson Robotics debuted Philip K. Dick (aka Philip K. Dick Android) at Wired Nextfest. Designed by David Hanson as a robotic paean to the sci-fi writer of the same name, it was initially created using thousands of pages of the author’s journals, letters and published writings.
account73466 7y ago
The most powerful agent is the one which manages to confiscate our only real asset - our time. Trump is pretty good at it with all the controversies he is generating. AI-assisted systems will be targeted at maximizing this interaction metric. You are slowly cooked by your favorite entertainer of the day to be then fed with an opinion which you take as your own. It is not novel at all.
- pjc50 7y ago
  This. Fact-checking is more time consuming than making things up. So they can drown out the fact checkers easily. And the facts are often uncomfortably murky. Whereas the lies build loyalty and belonging, an ideal basis for a movement.
  - davidw 7y ago
    > Fact-checking is more time consuming than making things up. AKA the "bullshit asymmetry principle" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit#Bullshit_asymmetry_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit#Bullshit_asymmetry_pr... "Both sidesism" is a closely related problem. "We interviewed Elena, a geophysicist, about the different ways scientists collect data about the planet we live on and the cosmos it's situated in. On the other side, Bob from the internet offers his theory about the earth being flat".
burrows 7y ago
Your expecting a fake reply from a fake phone sending fake bytes through a fake cyberverse. The worst part of all the faking is the people who won’t fake their faking.
- tabtab 7y ago
  Well, fake you!
mherdeg 7y ago
In Neal Stephenson's "Anathem" he proposes a distant alternate-history future where a priest-like cult of technical experts set themselves up to do effective human-aided Google searches which were necessary because the Internet was full of machine-generated disinformation. I genuinely thought this was an implausible, hokey premise when I read the book in 2008. I felt similarly about Orson Scott Card's plot in "Ender's Game" where two teenagers influence global political trends by posting a lot on social media (and I'm not the only one who thought this was silly: https://xkcd.com/635/ https://xkcd.com/635/ ). Then a bunch of Macedonian teenagers proved it worked in 2016. It is very difficult to predict the future.
- gowld 7y ago
  I tried a few times to explain how Ender's Game was different as they got into "moderated political debates in the higher class nets", but...it's not. We had the 2016 Presidential Debate. https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/635:_Locke_and_Demosthenes https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/635:_Locke_and_De...
- vanniv 7y ago
  The thing that worries me is that every year, I find the premise of Neil Schusterman's "Unwind" less far-fetched. It still seems improbable, but no longer utterly inconceivable.
- ksm1717 7y ago
  Yet you give two examples of the future being predicted
- perl4ever 7y ago
  "Then a bunch of Macedonian teenagers..." Uh, is this a commonly accepted fact? I literally had not heard this before now. I thought it was "somebody sitting on their bed that weighs 400 pounds".
  - mherdeg 7y ago
    This is super well documented; see: * This coverage about the industry in Veles: https://money.cnn.com/interactive/media/the-macedonia-story/ https://money.cnn.com/interactive/media/the-macedonia-story/ * Similar coverage from Wired: https://www.wired.com/2017/02/veles-macedonia-fake-news/ https://www.wired.com/2017/02/veles-macedonia-fake-news/ * NBC's version: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/fake-news-how-partying-macedonian-teen-earns-thousands-publishing-lies-n692451 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/fake-news-how-partying-ma... * A re-told version of the story in 2019 from the BBC: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190528-i-was-a-macedonian-fake-news-writer https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190528-i-was-a-macedoni...

by tabtab 7y ago

Fake people reading and writing fake news on fake websites? If this keeps up, we'll end up with a fake President. Don't give me negative points, for this is a fake reply.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

dilyevsky 7y ago

The world has gone full Philip K Dick

alexpetralia 7y ago
For those interested in understanding the reference here, I found this useful: https://expressiveegg.org/2017/01/03/four-kinds-dystopia/ https://expressiveegg.org/2017/01/03/four-kinds-dystopia/
- DonHopkins 7y ago
  It's Always Sunny in Phildickia.
saalweachter 7y ago
I occasionally think about the end of The Man in the High Castle, when the characters realize they are living in a fictional alternate history.
- boring_twenties 7y ago
  WTF man? Not everyone has read everything already...
  - selestify 7y ago
    It’s been out for decades, surely spoilers are expired now by any reasonable time limit
    - acollins1331 7y ago
      O K B O O M E R
  - saalweachter 7y ago
    While I am fine with the social conventions that hold spoiling recent works as anathema, or even older works within limited contexts (for instance, /r/WoT tries to allow readers to talk about the early books without instantly being spoiled for the later ones), the absurd demands people make to not "spoil" any book or movie people still read or watch recreationally -- and not just as a homework assignment -- is harmful. The metaphors, the concepts, the philosophies expressed in books, even trashy 1960's SF, are important. They are tools we can use to explain, to convince, to argue, to communicate. Demanding that we never speak aloud in any public place the words from any work of art more recent than Black Beauty (is that too recent? Is it OK to at least reference the end of Romeo and Juliet?) is demanding that we weaken ourselves, like Harrison Bergeron in Kurt Vonnegut's short story of the same name, and only communicate at the level of the least well-read individual in any society. If books are not going to contribute to discourse, if we cannot tell other people of what we read, we might as well burn them all, as in Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451. And at the end of the day, the only thing being protected by fervent cries of "spoilers!" "spoilers!" are the barest, sparsest facts of the story: if finding out the ending of a story is the only reason to read it, you were probably done a favor by having it "spoiled". Journey before destination.
    - boring_twenties 7y ago
      While I appreciate your thorough and heartfelt response here, what I don't understand is how your comment would have been diminished in any way without the explicit spoiler? Anyone who has already read the book would get it anyway. Everyone else wouldn't be any worse off, since that simple summary doesn't help understand the nuance of why it reminded of the ending. The only thing it does is spoil the ending. > If finding out the ending of a story is the only reason to read it, you were probably done a favor by having it "spoiled" False dichotomy much? It's not the only reason, but it's certainly a decent sized factor in the enjoyment of a novel. I certainly don't feel like you did me any favors.
- bonestamp2 7y ago
  !!! SPOILER ALERT ABOVE !!! Hopefully you saw this before reading the above comment.
  - jordigh 7y ago
    Spoiler alerts are a 20th century invention. Everyone has been taught to get angry about spoilers, but the very word "spoiler" itself is an internet invention coined in Usenet. The idea of society at large working hard to keep a fictional story secret is a marketing ploy invented by Alfred Hitchcock to sell more movie tickets to his mystery films. It used to be common to know everything about a story before you even experienced it, and there is evidence that despite what people say, they actually enjoy stories even more if they know beforehand how the story ends. http://www.wired.com/2011/08/spoilers-dont-spoil-anything/ http://www.wired.com/2011/08/spoilers-dont-spoil-anything/ If a story isn't worth reading if you already know the ending, it's not worth reading without knowing the ending either. Good stories cannot be spoiled. Good stories are not merely puzzles to be savoured for a single punchline. We also enjoy stories we already know well. It's why James Bond movies keep getting churned out despite all following the exact same formula or why Shakespeare plays are still in production centuries after they were written. Only bad stories are ruined by knowing the story.
    - lightedman 7y ago
      " but the very word "spoiler" is an internet invention coined in Usenet," Spoiler as a word was around in avionics well before UseNet even existed.
      - jordigh 7y ago
        Obviously I mean in the meaning of "spoil a story"; of course the precise sequence of characters of "ess, pee, oh, eye, ell, ee, are" existed before.
    - schnevets 7y ago
      This is a fascinating perspective I never really considered. The implications of "Spoiler Culture" on modern storytelling and consuming entertainment really are massive. The seasonal buzz about Christmas movies has me dwelling on the paradox between the backlog vs. the new release. 21st century entertainers are competing against an entire century of modern culture available to viewers in a second. How is it that my home has Netflix, HBO, and Hulu, and yet my wife and I are still paralyzed about what to watch every night? Why do we naturally lean towards the fresh thing on the front page? Movies and other art forms are just bandwidth now, so Hollywood has to artificially set the value through marketing and buzz. It seems like every studio is combating this existential threat in different ways (Sunday night dramas that trigger water cooler conversations, visually stunning films that are meant for the big screen, twist-filled plotlines, podcasts and other media focused on discussing the "latest episodes").
ydb 7y ago
Except without the fun of a full-blown stimulant psychosis. Everyone is going crazy seeing pink ghosts and visiting ancient Rome entirely sober.
DonHopkins 7y ago
Do you mean the President Rudy Kalbfleisch simulacrum who keeps breaking down in "The Simulacra", or the President Abraham Lincoln simulacrum who doesn't want to be sold in "We Can Build You"? Or do you mean the world has gone full blown "Faith of our Fathers" where the government is putting hallucinogenic drugs in the water supply to keep us from discovering the truth about our glorious leader(s)? Or some other book written by the fake Philip K Dick simulacrum built by Hanson Robotics, who was was ostensibly lost on a flight from Dallas to San Francisco in late 2005, and is rumored to have absconded to an undisclosed location and rebooted his writing career on the Dark Web? https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/226460.The_Simulacra https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/226460.The_Simulacra The Simulacra, by Philip K. Dick. Set in the middle of the twenty-first century, The Simulacra is the story of an America where the whole government is a fraud and the President is an android. Against this backdrop Dr. Superb, the sole remaining psychotherapist, is struggling to practice in a world full of the maladjusted. Ian Duncan is desperately in love with the first lady, Nicole Thibideaux, who he has never met. Richard Kongrosian refuses to see anyone because he is convinced his body odor is lethal. And the fascistic Bertold Goltz is trying to overthrow the government. With wonderful aplomb, Philip K. Dick brings this story to a crashing conclusion and in classic fashion shows there is always another layer of conspiracy beneath the one we see. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/400270.We_Can_Build_You https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/400270.We_Can_Build_You We Can Build You, by Philip K. Dick. Louis Rosen and his partners sell people--ingeniously designed, historically authentic simulacra of personages such as Edwin M. Stanton and Abraham Lincoln. The problem is that the only prospective buyer is a rapacious billionaire whose plans for the simulacra could land Louis in jail. Then there's the added complication that someone--or something--like Abraham Lincoln may not want to be sold. Is an electronic Lincoln any less alive than his creators? Is a machine that cares and suffers inferior to the woman Louis loves--a borderline psychopath who does neither? With irresistible momentum, intelligence, and wit, Philip K. Dick creates an arresting techno-thriller that suggests a marriage of Bladerunner and Barbarians at the Gate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_of_Our_Fathers_(short_story) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_of_Our_Fathers_(short_st... Faith of Our Fathers, by Philip K Dick. Tung Chien is a Vietnamese bureaucrat in a world that has been conquered by Chinese-style atheist communism, where the population is kept docile with hallucinogenic drugs. When a street vendor gives Tung an illegal anti-hallucinogen, he discovers that the Party leader has a horrible secret. https://www.hansonrobotics.com/philip-k-dick/ https://www.hansonrobotics.com/philip-k-dick/ Philip K Dick, Research Robot. Activated in 2005, Hanson Robotics debuted Philip K. Dick (aka Philip K. Dick Android) at Wired Nextfest. Designed by David Hanson as a robotic paean to the sci-fi writer of the same name, it was initially created using thousands of pages of the author’s journals, letters and published writings.

account73466 7y ago

The most powerful agent is the one which manages to confiscate our only real asset - our time. Trump is pretty good at it with all the controversies he is generating. AI-assisted systems will be targeted at maximizing this interaction metric. You are slowly cooked by your favorite entertainer of the day to be then fed with an opinion which you take as your own. It is not novel at all.

pjc50 7y ago
This. Fact-checking is more time consuming than making things up. So they can drown out the fact checkers easily. And the facts are often uncomfortably murky. Whereas the lies build loyalty and belonging, an ideal basis for a movement.
- davidw 7y ago
  > Fact-checking is more time consuming than making things up. AKA the "bullshit asymmetry principle" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit#Bullshit_asymmetry_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit#Bullshit_asymmetry_pr... "Both sidesism" is a closely related problem. "We interviewed Elena, a geophysicist, about the different ways scientists collect data about the planet we live on and the cosmos it's situated in. On the other side, Bob from the internet offers his theory about the earth being flat".

burrows 7y ago

Your expecting a fake reply from a fake phone sending fake bytes through a fake cyberverse. The worst part of all the faking is the people who won’t fake their faking.

tabtab 7y ago
Well, fake you!

mherdeg 7y ago

In Neal Stephenson's "Anathem" he proposes a distant alternate-history future where a priest-like cult of technical experts set themselves up to do effective human-aided Google searches which were necessary because the Internet was full of machine-generated disinformation. I genuinely thought this was an implausible, hokey premise when I read the book in 2008. I felt similarly about Orson Scott Card's plot in "Ender's Game" where two teenagers influence global political trends by posting a lot on social media (and I'm not the only one who thought this was silly: https://xkcd.com/635/ https://xkcd.com/635/ ). Then a bunch of Macedonian teenagers proved it worked in 2016. It is very difficult to predict the future.

gowld 7y ago
I tried a few times to explain how Ender's Game was different as they got into "moderated political debates in the higher class nets", but...it's not. We had the 2016 Presidential Debate. https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/635:_Locke_and_Demosthenes https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/635:_Locke_and_De...
vanniv 7y ago
The thing that worries me is that every year, I find the premise of Neil Schusterman's "Unwind" less far-fetched. It still seems improbable, but no longer utterly inconceivable.
ksm1717 7y ago
Yet you give two examples of the future being predicted
perl4ever 7y ago
"Then a bunch of Macedonian teenagers..." Uh, is this a commonly accepted fact? I literally had not heard this before now. I thought it was "somebody sitting on their bed that weighs 400 pounds".
- mherdeg 7y ago
  This is super well documented; see: * This coverage about the industry in Veles: https://money.cnn.com/interactive/media/the-macedonia-story/ https://money.cnn.com/interactive/media/the-macedonia-story/ * Similar coverage from Wired: https://www.wired.com/2017/02/veles-macedonia-fake-news/ https://www.wired.com/2017/02/veles-macedonia-fake-news/ * NBC's version: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/fake-news-how-partying-macedonian-teen-earns-thousands-publishing-lies-n692451 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/fake-news-how-partying-ma... * A re-told version of the story in 2019 from the BBC: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190528-i-was-a-macedonian-fake-news-writer https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190528-i-was-a-macedoni...