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Autism is characterized by autistic behavior. You cannot separate autistic behavior from an autistic person, it is simply their nature. These "mouse models" are

by spazx 7y ago

Autism is characterized by autistic behavior. You cannot separate autistic behavior from an autistic person, it is simply their nature. These "mouse models" are inaccurate, as they're based on behavioral observations in the mice and likening them to human behavior. We don't really know how autism works and why, and we haven't discovered actual autistic mice. In other words, it's mostly extrapolation. Anything can "reduce autism symptoms" that can make a neurotypical person unable to behave normally. Autistic behavior IS the normal for autistic people. Heavy sedatives, just like being very sick, can "reduce autism symptoms" since the person would be too tired to exhibit any behaviors at all. "Look, he's not flapping and pacing! His autism must be cured!" No, you dolt, he's exhausted and miserable from being sick. Leave autistic people alone and let them be themselves. Seriously, I can't believe some people would rather let their kid die of polio than believe they could be autistic. If you think having an autistic child is that terrible, you probably shouldn't have kids.

zozbot234 7y ago
> Leave autistic people alone and let them be themselves. Seriously, I can't believe some people would rather let their kid die of polio than believe they could be autistic. If you think having an autistic child is that terrible, you probably shouldn't have kids. That's very much not the case, unfortunately. Many autistic kids are very low function. Their deviations in behavior are way more serious than just some quirky flipping and pacing.
- spazx 7y ago
  And is that worse than getting polio?
  - i_am_proteus 7y ago
    I consider low-functioning autism to be similarly debilitating; both mean that the afflicted individual will not have a "normal" life, the manifestation is of course completely different. But this is a bizarre strawman because vaccines do not cause autism.
    - thr483900 7y ago
      Show me the study that looked at autism rates among vaccinated kids and also among unvaccinated kids. Where is that study?
  - dang 7y ago
    Would you please not post high-indignation, low-information comments to HN? I've sure you have good reason to feel strongly on this topic, but the rant you posted above has little to do with the article, and now you're taking the thread further into pure inflammation. That is what we're trying to avoid on this site. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- aero142 7y ago
  I think many people are unaware of the difference between high functioning autism and low functioning autism. Severely autistic children often react violently to any deviation from their expected norm. Violent children turn into violent teenagers. A 160 pound human prone to violence is a huge issue for any teacher or care giver. Imagine if being bitten to the point of bleeding, being punched, and having broken bones was a common part of you job. For the record, I agree with the "let them be themselves" answer in most cases. Sometime who they are is a real problem.
mamon 7y ago
It's weird that it has to be repeated so often on HN, but: Autism is not a superpower. Yes, sometimes mildly autistic people can become genius mathematicians, or whatever, but most of autistic people simply cannot function by themselves, they struggle with everyday things. So no, we can't just "leave them alone", we should try and understand what causes autism, and maybe someday we can cure it.
- spazx 7y ago
  It's not so black and white. Most autistic people aren't distinctly "low" or "high" functioning like that. They are otherwise fairly average people with a few traits that make things difficult, and appear "high" or "low" functioning depending on the environment they are subjected to. Why don't you ask an autistic person if they want to be cured? Go ahead. Jump on r/aspergers and ask them. They will tell you to go fly a kite.
  - anotherman554 7y ago
    It's possible that people so invested in the identity of having Aspergers that they hang out on /aspergers would tell you to fly a kite. That's hardly a representative sample of people with the condition. Most are probably living their lives and not hanging out on /aspergers.
    - spazx 7y ago
      Nice goalpost scoot. I'm telling you that if you ask any autistic person, they may express dissatisfaction with their autistic troubles, but they would tell you they would not want to be "cured" or "changed", because they would no longer be themselves.
      - allovernow 7y ago
        GP's point isn't to move goalposts, it's that your example is not indicative of the autistic community at large - it's a biased sample and, in line with GP's reasoning, I suspect there is a substantial proportion of (especially high functioning) autists who would strongly consider a cure. Imagine having normal, innate desires for friendship and companionship, but being unable to form such relationships and being crushingly aware of this fact. It's a miserable, deeply lonely existence and some of us would consider giving up "ourselves" in order to have a chance at a more socially fulfilling life.
detritus 7y ago
Having had a child this year, my greatest fear was that it might be profoundly autistic. I can't begin to imagine what it must be like to be stuck with a physiologically-broken child, for life, that is incapable of empathy or love for its parent. I appreciate that's the sort of thing that happens at the extreme ends of the spectrum and not at all representative of many high-functioning autists, but I don't think it's terrible to have that as a fear.
- r00fus 7y ago
  (I'm a parent of a kid on the spectrum) While the fear is natural, there are tons of other childhood conditions that are, in fact, worse than autism. Would you decline vaccines for yourself or your child because you fear they might "get autism" (which has been debunked). Edit: clarity
  - zensavona 7y ago
    No, because vaccines don't cause your child to "get autism"
    - r00fus 7y ago
      Thanks I clarified my comment.
  - detritus 7y ago
    Nope, and I'm not sure I even began to infer that. And also nope, because we ran the gauntlet despite our slightly higher age and subsequent increase in probability of autism (amongst many, may other conditions). As I say, I don't think it's wrong to fear the possibility, and as your post admirably points out, life is inherently full of risks.
- spazx 7y ago
  >incapable of empathy or love for its parent Autistic people are not sociopaths, they are not incapable of empathy or love, they just struggle to understand when you're expressing it, or to express it in appropriate way. Your fear of being unable to communicate with your child is valid, but autistic people are not "broken".
pvaldes 7y ago
Exact, and is even worse. We are taking the behaviour of an adult animal, a short lived one, strongly wired to have sex, bite other males at sight, chase off everybody from their territory and chew and eat other smaller animals and plants while avoid inminent death in form of many predators... And they are living in captivity, between plastic toys and hamster wheels. Males in a cage, and females in another cage. An environment that for its evolution probably would be seen as normal as for us being abducted by aliens and living in an alien zoo for our entire lifes. And we are taking that and extrapolating it to explain the behaviour to a human children. Would be ridiculous even for neurotypical children to expect them to behave like vicious sex driven mammals.

by spazx 7y ago

zozbot234 7y ago

> Leave autistic people alone and let them be themselves. Seriously, I can't believe some people would rather let their kid die of polio than believe they could be autistic. If you think having an autistic child is that terrible, you probably shouldn't have kids. That's very much not the case, unfortunately. Many autistic kids are very low function. Their deviations in behavior are way more serious than just some quirky flipping and pacing.

spazx 7y ago
And is that worse than getting polio?
- i_am_proteus 7y ago
  I consider low-functioning autism to be similarly debilitating; both mean that the afflicted individual will not have a "normal" life, the manifestation is of course completely different. But this is a bizarre strawman because vaccines do not cause autism.
  - thr483900 7y ago
    Show me the study that looked at autism rates among vaccinated kids and also among unvaccinated kids. Where is that study?
- dang 7y ago
  Would you please not post high-indignation, low-information comments to HN? I've sure you have good reason to feel strongly on this topic, but the rant you posted above has little to do with the article, and now you're taking the thread further into pure inflammation. That is what we're trying to avoid on this site. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
aero142 7y ago
I think many people are unaware of the difference between high functioning autism and low functioning autism. Severely autistic children often react violently to any deviation from their expected norm. Violent children turn into violent teenagers. A 160 pound human prone to violence is a huge issue for any teacher or care giver. Imagine if being bitten to the point of bleeding, being punched, and having broken bones was a common part of you job. For the record, I agree with the "let them be themselves" answer in most cases. Sometime who they are is a real problem.

mamon 7y ago

It's weird that it has to be repeated so often on HN, but: Autism is not a superpower. Yes, sometimes mildly autistic people can become genius mathematicians, or whatever, but most of autistic people simply cannot function by themselves, they struggle with everyday things. So no, we can't just "leave them alone", we should try and understand what causes autism, and maybe someday we can cure it.

spazx 7y ago
It's not so black and white. Most autistic people aren't distinctly "low" or "high" functioning like that. They are otherwise fairly average people with a few traits that make things difficult, and appear "high" or "low" functioning depending on the environment they are subjected to. Why don't you ask an autistic person if they want to be cured? Go ahead. Jump on r/aspergers and ask them. They will tell you to go fly a kite.
- anotherman554 7y ago
  It's possible that people so invested in the identity of having Aspergers that they hang out on /aspergers would tell you to fly a kite. That's hardly a representative sample of people with the condition. Most are probably living their lives and not hanging out on /aspergers.
  - spazx 7y ago
    Nice goalpost scoot. I'm telling you that if you ask any autistic person, they may express dissatisfaction with their autistic troubles, but they would tell you they would not want to be "cured" or "changed", because they would no longer be themselves.
    - allovernow 7y ago
      GP's point isn't to move goalposts, it's that your example is not indicative of the autistic community at large - it's a biased sample and, in line with GP's reasoning, I suspect there is a substantial proportion of (especially high functioning) autists who would strongly consider a cure. Imagine having normal, innate desires for friendship and companionship, but being unable to form such relationships and being crushingly aware of this fact. It's a miserable, deeply lonely existence and some of us would consider giving up "ourselves" in order to have a chance at a more socially fulfilling life.

detritus 7y ago

Having had a child this year, my greatest fear was that it might be profoundly autistic. I can't begin to imagine what it must be like to be stuck with a physiologically-broken child, for life, that is incapable of empathy or love for its parent. I appreciate that's the sort of thing that happens at the extreme ends of the spectrum and not at all representative of many high-functioning autists, but I don't think it's terrible to have that as a fear.

r00fus 7y ago
(I'm a parent of a kid on the spectrum) While the fear is natural, there are tons of other childhood conditions that are, in fact, worse than autism. Would you decline vaccines for yourself or your child because you fear they might "get autism" (which has been debunked). Edit: clarity
- zensavona 7y ago
  No, because vaccines don't cause your child to "get autism"
  - r00fus 7y ago
    Thanks I clarified my comment.
- detritus 7y ago
  Nope, and I'm not sure I even began to infer that. And also nope, because we ran the gauntlet despite our slightly higher age and subsequent increase in probability of autism (amongst many, may other conditions). As I say, I don't think it's wrong to fear the possibility, and as your post admirably points out, life is inherently full of risks.
spazx 7y ago
>incapable of empathy or love for its parent Autistic people are not sociopaths, they are not incapable of empathy or love, they just struggle to understand when you're expressing it, or to express it in appropriate way. Your fear of being unable to communicate with your child is valid, but autistic people are not "broken".

pvaldes 7y ago

Exact, and is even worse. We are taking the behaviour of an adult animal, a short lived one, strongly wired to have sex, bite other males at sight, chase off everybody from their territory and chew and eat other smaller animals and plants while avoid inminent death in form of many predators... And they are living in captivity, between plastic toys and hamster wheels. Males in a cage, and females in another cage. An environment that for its evolution probably would be seen as normal as for us being abducted by aliens and living in an alien zoo for our entire lifes. And we are taking that and extrapolating it to explain the behaviour to a human children. Would be ridiculous even for neurotypical children to expect them to behave like vicious sex driven mammals.