8 ms·

An immune molecule can sometimes influence the social behavior of mice: study

64 points by mrrazz 7y ago

swebs 7y ago
And vaccines prevent infections. So in other words... :P
- ossworkerrights 7y ago
  My thoughts exactly! That would be a bizarre turn of events.
  - eitland 7y ago
    Not too fast, it goes both ways: > In 2016, they showed that mice born to mothers who experience a severe infection during pregnancy are much more likely to show behavioral symptoms such as deficits in sociability, repetitive behaviors, and abnormal communication.
    - hobbio 7y ago
      If vaccination of the child could prevent some baseline level of IL-17a from developing (in offsprings who already suffered the brain degradation in the womb), it could be interesting. They should look for children who had the risk factor (infected mother) but didn't turn autistic to see if they have the levels elevated. Long shot.
    - ossworkerrights 7y ago
      My comment is a pun, not a show of support for anti vaxx, not sure why am I getting down-votes.
      - DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
        Posts mainly intended as humor are usually downvoted on HN.
- SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
  > The researchers began by studying mice that exhibited behavioral symptoms due to exposure to inflammation during gestation. They injected these mice with a bacterial component called LPS, which induces a fever response, and found that the animals’ social interactions were temporarily restored to normal. So if you get your kid sick enough you can temporarily pretend they aren't autistic, and really put to the test the idea that anti-vaxxers think autism is worse than being deathly ill?
  - Filligree 7y ago
    Calling what happened to those mice "autism" is a massive stretch indeed. I don't see that this research tells us much.
    - reportgunner 7y ago
      may or could in the title means won't
- loriverkutya 7y ago
  They are not preventing the infection itself, they are allowing your immune system to kill the infection before it develops into the full blown disease. (No it is not funny, because people and children dying because of this bullshit)
  - umvi 7y ago
    I thought vaccines just contained antigens which are essentially just the receptors; i.e. it's impossible to actually get sick from a vaccine since the actual bacteria/virus is missing. IANAB though, I'm sure there are many kinds of vaccines prepared using many different methods. Also, I thought the joke was funny; I highly doubt there are any genuine anti-vaxxers in HN comments.
    - milankragujevic 7y ago
      It depends on the type, some (not quite a small number) of vaccines contain an attenuated version of the virus. Some are available in multiple forms, like Salk and Sabin polio vaccines. However, the risk of getting sick from the vaccine is small compared to the risk of getting sick without the vaccine. When the risk levels get close to equal, the vaccine type is changed to the less-risky but less-effective type. Attenuated virus vaccines are usually more effective than inactive virus ones.
- dang 7y ago
  "Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
pvaldes 7y ago
Autistic children are children, the same full irritating, exhuberant, noisy and magnet for troubles in a small package than before, but with a plus of cleverness, strange ways to do things, uncommon hobbies and extravaganza. The idea that an ill children tired and with less energy than usual would behave better is not a total surprise.
- hobbio 7y ago
  They say when having fever, the mice communicate with peers better. When children are under the weather, they don't seem to communicate better.
  - jkoudys 7y ago
    "I want bunny I want it bunny! I WANT IIIIIIT!" [gets bunny, immediately hurls it across room] "I don't like it I don't want it! I don't like bunny waaaah!" [3 seconds pass] "I want bunny!" My daughter, every time she has a cold, which since daycare is almost always.
    - hobbio 7y ago
      My bad, you make me remember. When children were smaller, indeed they were quite energetic up to until some quite high degree fever. Now they are older, and fever starts to knock them out sooner. Fever suppressants make them bouncy again still (so no rush to give them until 38.7-ish, as long as they drink well etc).
  - pvaldes 7y ago
    The problem is how they define a better communication between mice. From an human point of view? Normal male mice fight. You enter in my zone, I'll bite you and chase you off. Normal female mice are more tolerant with relatives and pups, but not with any other female. They can fight also with strange females. This is the rule for the species and the definition of perfect and normal communication. "pacifist" or mesiah mice is anomalous and probably would send a really confusing message for the other mice. "I'm too feverish and tired to fight right now, so let me alone" is common among animals and not necessarily related with autistic behaviour.
TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
in mice
hobbio 7y ago
> The reason for that, the researchers found, is that in these mice [with certain genes missing and whose mother didn't have inflammation while pregnant], inflammation did not stimulate IL-17a production. What I wonder if baseline mice produce IL-17a in response to inflammation? My guess would be no. I would also wonder if some low to moderate infection in mothers can spare the offspring from autism, but still prime IL production?
loa_in_ 7y ago
There is also at least one study showing (at least) flu infection compelling humans to be more sociable and outgoing, but it was (now that I think of it) conducted by comparing self reported social interaction counts before and after a flu vaccine containing (of course) flu virions. See references in this article, because I have trouble copying them on mobile. https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/darwins-subterranean-world/201801/does-the-flu-trick-people-being-sociable https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/darwins-subterrane...
- TheFiend7 7y ago
  I mean, I guess my question is could this be apart of the virus or bacteria's attack vector? Isn't it in the best interest of viruses and bacteria that the host becomes more sociable and therefore improves infection rate.
openasocket 7y ago
Are mice considered an effective model for autism? My understanding is we still don't know the exact mechanism of action of autism. Heck, there could be many different mechanisms, and we're lumping people with different underlying conditions into a single category because the symptoms line up. So our model of autism is entirely based on behavior. But if the mechanism of action in these mice is different from humans, you can't make any real predictions about how to treat/manage it.
- corodra 7y ago
  "Although findings in mice do not always translate into human treatments, the study may help to guide the development of strategies that could help..." Pulled right from the article. Studies in mice are simply a way to point in the, hopefully, "right" direction without having to shoot in the dark with human test subjects needlessly.
  - bsdz 7y ago
    A mouse model for human autism is contrived at best. The cynic in me feels that some researchers are running out of ideas. The only experimental apparatus are poor knockout mice. Arguably an analogy is trying to fix a compiled binary with a hex editor and replacing all your 0x11s with 0x0a. Then claiming the segfault is a good model of how another binary crashes (due to a null pointer exception or whatever really).
    - corodra 7y ago
      Oh my shit, they don't claim to have an answer. They have a direction. Not an answer. There's a very large difference. The entire language in this is extremely aware and careful that they don't have a cure. Quit acting like this is a CNN article saying "Scientists cured all disease because of a 2 person study". They have some survey based evidence that it happens in humans too. With a potential replication in mice, they feel confident it's an avenue worth pursuing. No one is holding their breath. It's an interesting study, with interesting line of evidence thought that they think is worth seeing if completely true. That's it, don't make it out to more than that. They share this information so other people can be enlightened to the idea and with professionals who are actually apart of the field help poke actual holes in the issues or offer other ideas to help guide it further. Not just "Ugh, you used mice, like, it's totally not gonna work man because it's like this one programming bug I once had."
mannewalis 7y ago
Makes sense, from an evolutionary standpoint, infections that resulted in more social behavior are more likely to spread and survive.
spazx 7y ago
Autism is characterized by autistic behavior. You cannot separate autistic behavior from an autistic person, it is simply their nature. These "mouse models" are inaccurate, as they're based on behavioral observations in the mice and likening them to human behavior. We don't really know how autism works and why, and we haven't discovered actual autistic mice. In other words, it's mostly extrapolation. Anything can "reduce autism symptoms" that can make a neurotypical person unable to behave normally. Autistic behavior IS the normal for autistic people. Heavy sedatives, just like being very sick, can "reduce autism symptoms" since the person would be too tired to exhibit any behaviors at all. "Look, he's not flapping and pacing! His autism must be cured!" No, you dolt, he's exhausted and miserable from being sick. Leave autistic people alone and let them be themselves. Seriously, I can't believe some people would rather let their kid die of polio than believe they could be autistic. If you think having an autistic child is that terrible, you probably shouldn't have kids.
- zozbot234 7y ago
  > Leave autistic people alone and let them be themselves. Seriously, I can't believe some people would rather let their kid die of polio than believe they could be autistic. If you think having an autistic child is that terrible, you probably shouldn't have kids. That's very much not the case, unfortunately. Many autistic kids are very low function. Their deviations in behavior are way more serious than just some quirky flipping and pacing.
  - spazx 7y ago
    And is that worse than getting polio?
    - i_am_proteus 7y ago
      I consider low-functioning autism to be similarly debilitating; both mean that the afflicted individual will not have a "normal" life, the manifestation is of course completely different. But this is a bizarre strawman because vaccines do not cause autism.
superkuh 7y ago
Inflammation and temperature rise effect increase energy needed to propagate an action potential down an axon. Many anxiolytics also downregulate inhibitory neuronal firing (ie, GABA agonists (alcohol), GABA allosteric agonists (benzodiazpines), etc).

64 points by mrrazz 7y ago

swebs 7y ago

And vaccines prevent infections. So in other words... :P

ossworkerrights 7y ago
My thoughts exactly! That would be a bizarre turn of events.
- eitland 7y ago
  Not too fast, it goes both ways: > In 2016, they showed that mice born to mothers who experience a severe infection during pregnancy are much more likely to show behavioral symptoms such as deficits in sociability, repetitive behaviors, and abnormal communication.
  - hobbio 7y ago
    If vaccination of the child could prevent some baseline level of IL-17a from developing (in offsprings who already suffered the brain degradation in the womb), it could be interesting. They should look for children who had the risk factor (infected mother) but didn't turn autistic to see if they have the levels elevated. Long shot.
  - ossworkerrights 7y ago
    My comment is a pun, not a show of support for anti vaxx, not sure why am I getting down-votes.
    - DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
      Posts mainly intended as humor are usually downvoted on HN.
SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
> The researchers began by studying mice that exhibited behavioral symptoms due to exposure to inflammation during gestation. They injected these mice with a bacterial component called LPS, which induces a fever response, and found that the animals’ social interactions were temporarily restored to normal. So if you get your kid sick enough you can temporarily pretend they aren't autistic, and really put to the test the idea that anti-vaxxers think autism is worse than being deathly ill?
- Filligree 7y ago
  Calling what happened to those mice "autism" is a massive stretch indeed. I don't see that this research tells us much.
  - reportgunner 7y ago
    may or could in the title means won't
loriverkutya 7y ago
They are not preventing the infection itself, they are allowing your immune system to kill the infection before it develops into the full blown disease. (No it is not funny, because people and children dying because of this bullshit)
- umvi 7y ago
  I thought vaccines just contained antigens which are essentially just the receptors; i.e. it's impossible to actually get sick from a vaccine since the actual bacteria/virus is missing. IANAB though, I'm sure there are many kinds of vaccines prepared using many different methods. Also, I thought the joke was funny; I highly doubt there are any genuine anti-vaxxers in HN comments.
  - milankragujevic 7y ago
    It depends on the type, some (not quite a small number) of vaccines contain an attenuated version of the virus. Some are available in multiple forms, like Salk and Sabin polio vaccines. However, the risk of getting sick from the vaccine is small compared to the risk of getting sick without the vaccine. When the risk levels get close to equal, the vaccine type is changed to the less-risky but less-effective type. Attenuated virus vaccines are usually more effective than inactive virus ones.
dang 7y ago
"Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

pvaldes 7y ago

Autistic children are children, the same full irritating, exhuberant, noisy and magnet for troubles in a small package than before, but with a plus of cleverness, strange ways to do things, uncommon hobbies and extravaganza. The idea that an ill children tired and with less energy than usual would behave better is not a total surprise.

hobbio 7y ago
They say when having fever, the mice communicate with peers better. When children are under the weather, they don't seem to communicate better.
- jkoudys 7y ago
  "I want bunny I want it bunny! I WANT IIIIIIT!" [gets bunny, immediately hurls it across room] "I don't like it I don't want it! I don't like bunny waaaah!" [3 seconds pass] "I want bunny!" My daughter, every time she has a cold, which since daycare is almost always.
  - hobbio 7y ago
    My bad, you make me remember. When children were smaller, indeed they were quite energetic up to until some quite high degree fever. Now they are older, and fever starts to knock them out sooner. Fever suppressants make them bouncy again still (so no rush to give them until 38.7-ish, as long as they drink well etc).
- pvaldes 7y ago
  The problem is how they define a better communication between mice. From an human point of view? Normal male mice fight. You enter in my zone, I'll bite you and chase you off. Normal female mice are more tolerant with relatives and pups, but not with any other female. They can fight also with strange females. This is the rule for the species and the definition of perfect and normal communication. "pacifist" or mesiah mice is anomalous and probably would send a really confusing message for the other mice. "I'm too feverish and tired to fight right now, so let me alone" is common among animals and not necessarily related with autistic behaviour.

TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago

in mice

hobbio 7y ago

> The reason for that, the researchers found, is that in these mice [with certain genes missing and whose mother didn't have inflammation while pregnant], inflammation did not stimulate IL-17a production. What I wonder if baseline mice produce IL-17a in response to inflammation? My guess would be no. I would also wonder if some low to moderate infection in mothers can spare the offspring from autism, but still prime IL production?

loa_in_ 7y ago

There is also at least one study showing (at least) flu infection compelling humans to be more sociable and outgoing, but it was (now that I think of it) conducted by comparing self reported social interaction counts before and after a flu vaccine containing (of course) flu virions. See references in this article, because I have trouble copying them on mobile. https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/darwins-subterranean-world/201801/does-the-flu-trick-people-being-sociable https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/darwins-subterrane...

TheFiend7 7y ago
I mean, I guess my question is could this be apart of the virus or bacteria's attack vector? Isn't it in the best interest of viruses and bacteria that the host becomes more sociable and therefore improves infection rate.

openasocket 7y ago

Are mice considered an effective model for autism? My understanding is we still don't know the exact mechanism of action of autism. Heck, there could be many different mechanisms, and we're lumping people with different underlying conditions into a single category because the symptoms line up. So our model of autism is entirely based on behavior. But if the mechanism of action in these mice is different from humans, you can't make any real predictions about how to treat/manage it.

corodra 7y ago
"Although findings in mice do not always translate into human treatments, the study may help to guide the development of strategies that could help..." Pulled right from the article. Studies in mice are simply a way to point in the, hopefully, "right" direction without having to shoot in the dark with human test subjects needlessly.
- bsdz 7y ago
  A mouse model for human autism is contrived at best. The cynic in me feels that some researchers are running out of ideas. The only experimental apparatus are poor knockout mice. Arguably an analogy is trying to fix a compiled binary with a hex editor and replacing all your 0x11s with 0x0a. Then claiming the segfault is a good model of how another binary crashes (due to a null pointer exception or whatever really).
  - corodra 7y ago
    Oh my shit, they don't claim to have an answer. They have a direction. Not an answer. There's a very large difference. The entire language in this is extremely aware and careful that they don't have a cure. Quit acting like this is a CNN article saying "Scientists cured all disease because of a 2 person study". They have some survey based evidence that it happens in humans too. With a potential replication in mice, they feel confident it's an avenue worth pursuing. No one is holding their breath. It's an interesting study, with interesting line of evidence thought that they think is worth seeing if completely true. That's it, don't make it out to more than that. They share this information so other people can be enlightened to the idea and with professionals who are actually apart of the field help poke actual holes in the issues or offer other ideas to help guide it further. Not just "Ugh, you used mice, like, it's totally not gonna work man because it's like this one programming bug I once had."

mannewalis 7y ago

Makes sense, from an evolutionary standpoint, infections that resulted in more social behavior are more likely to spread and survive.

spazx 7y ago

Autism is characterized by autistic behavior. You cannot separate autistic behavior from an autistic person, it is simply their nature. These "mouse models" are inaccurate, as they're based on behavioral observations in the mice and likening them to human behavior. We don't really know how autism works and why, and we haven't discovered actual autistic mice. In other words, it's mostly extrapolation. Anything can "reduce autism symptoms" that can make a neurotypical person unable to behave normally. Autistic behavior IS the normal for autistic people. Heavy sedatives, just like being very sick, can "reduce autism symptoms" since the person would be too tired to exhibit any behaviors at all. "Look, he's not flapping and pacing! His autism must be cured!" No, you dolt, he's exhausted and miserable from being sick. Leave autistic people alone and let them be themselves. Seriously, I can't believe some people would rather let their kid die of polio than believe they could be autistic. If you think having an autistic child is that terrible, you probably shouldn't have kids.

zozbot234 7y ago
> Leave autistic people alone and let them be themselves. Seriously, I can't believe some people would rather let their kid die of polio than believe they could be autistic. If you think having an autistic child is that terrible, you probably shouldn't have kids. That's very much not the case, unfortunately. Many autistic kids are very low function. Their deviations in behavior are way more serious than just some quirky flipping and pacing.
- spazx 7y ago
  And is that worse than getting polio?
  - i_am_proteus 7y ago
    I consider low-functioning autism to be similarly debilitating; both mean that the afflicted individual will not have a "normal" life, the manifestation is of course completely different. But this is a bizarre strawman because vaccines do not cause autism.

superkuh 7y ago

Inflammation and temperature rise effect increase energy needed to propagate an action potential down an axon. Many anxiolytics also downregulate inhibitory neuronal firing (ie, GABA agonists (alcohol), GABA allosteric agonists (benzodiazpines), etc).